Hi everyone and welcome back. I am here today with Heather Edwards, ⁓ another amazing guest and I’ve been waiting to talk to her for a while. Welcome Heather.

Heather Edwards (00:11)

Thank you. It’s so good to be here. I’m excited for our conversation.

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (00:14)

Me too, me too. And already, I just want to tell y’all, you got to stick around to the end. There are so many questions, too many questions that I actually have for Heather. But before I get started, ⁓ I just want to do my typical bragging in the beginning. So I’m going to tell you guys a little bit about Heather and what she’s doing. It will definitely not encompass everything. So hang on. Here we go. Heather Edwards is a writer, sexuality counselor, and pelvic PT.

As a pelvic physical therapist, she quickly learned that talking about sex in a way that creates safety and comfort is her superpower. I love that so much. After training at the University of Michigan for a dual certificate in sexuality counseling and education, which is no small achievement, she achieved national certification in both. She’s the course and content director for Pelvic Global and teaches the pelvic health sexuality counseling certification with her amazing colleague.

Dr. Uchenna Osei, always a fan of out-of-the-box educational styles. She’s authored and illustrated three coloring books. I’ve got to see those. That celebrate the diversity of genitals. Yes. An illustrated storybook about a non-binary vulva breaking free of patriarchal norms. I also have to see this. And an erotica novel, June Full Moon. It’s like so much. It’s on my Christmas list.

Heather Edwards (01:32)

you

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (01:40)

For the past decade, she’s been delivering community sex ed with the live show, Vino and Vulvas and I am adoring that name, in Asheville, North Carolina. And there’s not too many times that our guests on the Vocal Pelvic floor are also in the state. And I’m in the mountains and she’s in the mountains today, so we’re actually not that far away from each other. We could have done this in person. But to round things out, she enjoys playing the cello.

Heather Edwards (02:01)

Right.

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (02:09)

Love the cello, riding on her old school typewriter, kayaking, dancing, geeking out about nature and powerlifting. Welcome, Heather.

Heather Edwards (02:18)

Thank you so much.

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (02:21)

All right, so let’s first of all, right out of the gate, before we hit record, we were talking about ⁓ just eliminating confusion and there’s so much stigma and confusion around talking about sex. So the first thing that I wanted to ask was the difference between ⁓ sex therapists, sex counseling, like can you just clear that up for us? Because I want the listener to understand like where they need to be going to get help.

Heather Edwards (02:46)

Absolutely. And it is a really unclear thing. ⁓ And I think it’s something that like blocks a lot of people. You know, not very many people know about pelvic physical therapy. And you know, when they find out about that, it’s like, my gosh. And so, like, all of these other things kind of become a little more and more obscure. often, you know, someone with a vulva will like ask their gynecologist about like their sexual health, and there won’t

really be like a great answer because gynecologists don’t actually get any training on sexual health, which you know is kind of crazy. Right. And also here’s another one that blows my mind. ⁓ Marriage and family therapists also don’t get training in sexual health and it’s like marriage, right? Like it’s like sex is just so taboo that we just it’s like all the places that you think you would be able to ask for it, right? You go to your couples counselor, you go to your gynecologist,

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (03:19)

That’s a truth bomb. Yeah.

Right.

Heather Edwards (03:43)

There’s no guarantee that they have any actual training in sexual health ⁓

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (03:48)

That’s amazing that

the places that you would go to find that sanctuary and safe space to talk about it, and they’re not even talking about it there.

Heather Edwards (03:51)

Right.

Right. And so, you you get brave enough to go out and actually like say a thing out loud and then it’s met with like crickets, you know, or not knowing where to go. So I just want to talk a little bit about kind of where else like you can look and what some of the differences are. ⁓ So there are medical providers that are trained more specifically as I am, because I’m a pelvic physical therapist by trade. So I come into this with a medical background, right?

So I am certified as a sexuality counselor. ⁓ The way that our certifying board ⁓ kind of separates between counselor and therapist is that therapists are mental health providers. So they’re gonna be, they have to be a licensed mental health practitioner, okay? And then sex counselors are generally going to be medically licensed, but also they can be ⁓ like,

clergy or people who have just had additional counseling training but aren’t licensed mental health professionals. So that’s just kind of a good thing to understand. The difference in the approaches is generally that therapists are gonna be really good with the things where you need to like kind of dive into the past or like dive in a little deeper or uncover some of the things like, you know, that like the everything’s going well, but I just every time, you know,

my partner touches me, I think about that thing that happens or like, and then I get triggered. Like that sort of stuff is really fantastic to take to a mental health professional to help you understand like what’s going on with that. As far as sex counselors and also sex educators and with this as well, we’re really good at breaking down, ⁓ like if someone comes to us with a problem, what we’re gonna do is help you kind of like break down what the pieces of that problem are.

and then offer education and step-by-step ways to kind of get to the other side of it. And then if we’re gonna, if we see that like that progress is being blocked by, you know, resentment or lack of trust or things like that, then that’s when we would be like, hey, so I think mental health professional would actually be really helpful for this aspect of it. ⁓ But we kind of function a lot more in like a coaching role.

⁓ with like, you know, here’s our goals. We’re going to break them down, educate you around them and give you ⁓ simple solutions and like specific solutions in order to move forward through this. So ⁓ that’s kind of what there is there.

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (06:32)

Yeah.

Thanks for that

clarification ⁓ because there’s a lot of strengths in both and at some point probably gonna need both ⁓ depending on what happens to you while you’re on this lovely planet. ⁓ The really cool thing about what you’re doing is that if someone also has these biomechanical, biotinsegrity, these other issues that are a physical impediment or impairment or they’ve undergone

a procedure, a surgery, ⁓ gender affirming, procedures, et cetera, and hormone issues. That’s a massive thing too. That can fall under one umbrella in addition to the counseling that you’re able to provide, which is just, it’s a brilliant thing and I’m really glad that you’re out there doing it.

Heather Edwards (07:23)

Yeah, thank you. I love it. I really, really enjoy it.

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (07:27)

Yeah. Okay, so I this question first. Not really the first question, but it’s at the top of my mind because when I read the title of your show, was like, oh, oh, I’ve got to learn more about this. Tell me about Vino and Vulvas. How did you land in that space? I mean, where did that come from?

Heather Edwards (07:42)

Oh

my gosh. So I love the story. mean, and I have like 12 different versions of the story because it has so many different legs. So I will try to be brief. Basically, when I started the show in 2015 and I tended to gravitate toward other like sexual health professionals in town or, know, like those are the people I wanted to be friends with. Right. Like, who are they? And so I found one sex therapist in town, one sex educator in town.

one woman who did like pro domination work and was also a UU minister. ⁓ and then someone who did like somatic body work that was like somatic sexuality, body work. And like, those were like the only, like there were hardly any other public PTs in town at that time. There were really not very many like sex therapists. Like it was, there were not many of us around. And every time I would get together with any of these.

any of these friends, I would just, we would both like usually say like, my gosh, like I have like five friends who I wish could sit in on this conversation with us, because these are the things we’re talking about, you know, like that when you’re talking with your buddies, like these are the things that keep coming up around marriage, around pelvic floor health, around, you know, body things and orgasms and sex and all that. And so we realized that we were kind of having these conversations that would probably be helpful to have for a wider audience.

And so that’s what we did. The name Vino and Vulvas, we started in a wine bar and it was just like a, and it was Vulvas is not because it is exclusive to people with Vulvas. It was more, came out of a like, it’s a vulva, not a vagina, right? Like that was the conversation in 2015. So it gave me the ability to have like, you know, my banker and my accountant and all of these people have to say vulva.

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (09:13)

Hmm.

Yeah.

Heather Edwards (09:35)

right, because of business. So it was sort of just like, let’s put this word into the conversation, you know? Yeah. And so then the vibe was kind of like, let’s, we had like all these comfy couches, like, let’s sit around on these couches and drink a glass of wine or whatever you want to have. And we will plan some conversations and whoever wants to show up to it can show up to it. ⁓ So that’s where it started.

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (09:43)

That’s awesome.

Heather Edwards (10:01)

⁓ and then it kind of, it grew, we outgrew that space. And then I think this next year we’ll be in what I think is maybe like our sixth space. yeah. And every year it changes a little bit. but what the, basically what I do is I, they’re all panel discussions, but I realize that panel discussion sounds wildly boring. ⁓ so it’s basically, I usually host, ⁓

And then I have someone that comes from more of like a mental health background, and then someone who comes from more of a medical background, and then someone who comes from more of a like erotic performance sex educator, like, like, or like a sex worker or someone who they don’t have a licensure that they have to uphold to when they’re on stage. I have one of my favorite panelists is a drag queen and they come on stage and drag and yeah, and that’s just your magic. ⁓

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (10:53)

my gosh.

awesome.

Heather Edwards (10:58)

But it’s nice because then it makes everyone have to stretch outside of their professional window, right? And be able to have bigger conversations. I learned early on that like putting like three pelvic PTs on the stage was an awful idea as was putting three therapists on a stage or like anyone. It’s like, no, no, no, we need to like mix up people so you all don’t get the same language that you could speak about. So everyone else can understand what the heck you’re talking about and you can challenge each other and all of that. So.

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (11:25)

Yeah.

Heather Edwards (11:26)

Yeah, so we have just like,

try to cover all of the topics. I’ve got a really fun group here now that, ⁓ that like, kind of likes to be on the panels a lot. And so, you know, I’ll kind of help source them like what, what is it we need to talk about? What’s the common, what are the conversations we need to bring to the community this year? And, yeah. And then we go from there and put it together and they’re always an absolute blast.

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (11:50)

I gotta come in sometime. I do. All right, after this I have to figure out when they’re gonna be. I am not that far away. I can make that happen. So I am sure this was one of your questions then. For as many, how many, 2015 you said, so a decade of doing this? I don’t think you could ever exhaust all the topics, but we’re just gonna throw some things out there. So I think one of the most common things that people don’t think about until maybe they’re questioning their sexuality

Heather Edwards (11:52)

You could come. You totally should.

Yeah.

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (12:20)

or how they identify is this idea of coming into a care scenario where they as a patient or person or client may consider, know, a human being may consider themselves to, they may be roping themselves into this narrow, heteronormative default definition of what counts as sex, right? And it makes me do air quotes and shrug my shoulders and get this look on my face of, ugh.

Heather Edwards (12:20)

Mm-hmm.

Yes.

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (12:48)

I think we do that to ourselves, but then you can go into care scenarios where that is also the default definition. so how can we, as the listener, begin to understand how to reframe that conversation? Because obviously it limits our ability to talk honestly with the provider about what’s happening in our bodies.

Heather Edwards (13:07)

Right, yeah, and when you, and this is when I’m ⁓ teaching medical professionals how to kind of be better at talking about sex with their clients. One of the big things is like, we need people to ask questions in a way that don’t make, that don’t put the client or patient in a situation to where they have to come out, right? Regardless of what that is.

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (13:33)

Hmm.

Heather Edwards (13:35)

So if you ask a question, if you have someone who looks like a cisgender woman sitting in your room and your questions automatically go toward you and your husband, right? Then all of a sudden that patient has to sit there and like, okay, are they saying that because that’s just the easy thing, but they would be open to anything else.

or are they saying that because that’s going to be the only acceptable thing and if I break that mold that they’re expecting, then the level of care that I’m gonna get is changed and I’m gonna feel judged. if they, mean, sometimes like if they don’t have a husband, right? Or if they are gay or if they have multiple partners or anything like that, so if questions are asked in a way that don’t,

presume what a version of the answer, then that can be a lot easier. Now from a client’s perspective, like so when you go in and you see your practitioner and if they ask you a question like that, it takes a little bit of a bravery to kind of like challenge them on that. And you know, and it’s tricky because you can put yourself in a situation to where maybe you don’t feel quite as safe or you feel judged or you’re putting yourself in a place where now all of a sudden your practitioner does not feel as competent.

with your care, right? Like if you are someone who they were presuming to be straight and now you tell them you’re gay and all of a sudden they’re like, I don’t know what to do with that. That can be a place that kind of puts someone on a defensive. So it is tricky. ⁓ But that’s definitely something that you can kind of get ahead at at the beginning. If there’s like a questionnaire or something that you feel safe in answering questions about ⁓ that they can have going into it to where they know a little bit more about you.

Great. That can be helpful. ⁓ Also, if you can call ahead and kind of get an idea of who you’re going to be working with ⁓ or see, look on their website and see like if they have anything that flags them as safe for the thing that you are concerned about. This is the same thing with kinky folks, right? Like, so people who just don’t do sex in the ways that are like the prescriptive, this is how it all sort of works. Like, like all of that can fall.

in the realm of I might freak out my doctor if I say this out loud, right? ⁓ So finding doctors and a lot of times in these communities, there are ways that they’re communicating with each other to where if they have a good experience with one practitioner, they will be like, hey, this person’s great, go see them. And so like asking within your community for who has had good experiences with good providers in the area is probably one of the safer ways to go so that you don’t have to be faced with that.

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (16:02)

Mm-hmm.

Heather Edwards (16:26)

situation of ⁓ having to come out and risk being judged because like that is not your job to to educate your provider. It’s and you certainly don’t want to have to make your provider feel uncomfortable. Not that you like you don’t need to make your provider like feel comfortable, but you also sometimes it’s like, I don’t want to get them on the defensive or just feel that complicated energy in the room.

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (16:35)

Mm-hmm.

Heather Edwards (16:52)

So find someone who you can be your whole self with as easily as you can so that you can walk in and say what you need to say and ask all the questions and get the information that you actually want.

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (17:03)

Yeah. So I think that to dive a little bit deeper on that, for people who have defined sex as like penis vagina, that’s it, you know, ⁓ they’re also going to define ⁓ sex, by maybe by maybe by maybe like only, you know, like orgasm only, right? So they’ve got this narrow, you know, coming in with that heteronormative default definition.

Heather Edwards (17:28)

Right.

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (17:33)

How do, a provider, let’s go at it from the client perspective. Let’s go at it from the listener, right? They’re gonna go in and they don’t even know that they have this normative, know, heteronormative definition default and they’re going for help. So they’re going for help already, but they’re kind of locking themselves into this one definition of success.

And I think that’s probably a common myth you see repeatedly is people that peaks people suffering like a lot longer than they think because they thought well, this is failing I’m not this is not working that kind of thing how to then you know, how does how does a listener challenge themself To that definition and get outside of that

Heather Edwards (18:16)

Yeah, so I think the best question, like you hear this in sex therapy too, and then also in sex counseling, Sex usually isn’t actually the problem, right? I mean, yes, sex can like not be working great, but like often the reason that people will come in ⁓ to seek help for it, it’s not necessarily because like sex isn’t working, it’s because sex isn’t working and now…

my relationship is at risk. Sex isn’t working and now I don’t like I’m afraid my partner is going to cheat on me. Sex isn’t working and so there’s usually like a relational or like sex isn’t working like I’ve always been able to have orgasms really easily and now I can’t and like I feel like I’m losing my sense of self, right? So there’s usually like it’s a deeper thing than just like the physical act of a thing working and like we see this like

it shows up. you you get someone who comes in and has like, ⁓ say, you know, like, like a pain with insertive with penetrative sex. Okay. And it’s like, okay. And so for them in their head, they might have this idea of when I get this fixed, everything with my relationship will be fixed because the problem with my relationship is that sex isn’t working and it’s my fault because it hurts. Okay. So then all of sudden,

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (19:39)

Mm-hmm.

Heather Edwards (19:41)

we get them to the point medically where sex doesn’t hurt anymore, but they’re not pleased. And it’s because they’re still having all of the same relationship issues because those haven’t actually been addressed or talked about. So, you know, so as far as for clients, like I would, I would really recommend like, like think about, like go beyond, like sex isn’t working, you know, and so that creates what are the problems that it actually creates, you know?

So often when I would ask people in clinic, ⁓ know, so like, what is it that you want? Like what’s missing from your life with sex not working for you? You know, and often it takes a little bit of prompting for them to kind of like understand what it is, but usually it comes down to like connection and love. And this is how me and my partner, this is like, this is our intimacy. This is the thing. And now like that’s missing.

So when we kind of start to look at that and then realize that we’re tying like love and connection and intimacy to an act of a penis having to be erect and a vagina having to be supple and comfortable, it all seems a little silly, right? So, and that goes both ways, right? So the act of questioning that and separating out like love and intimacy and connection and like

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (20:50)

you

Mm-hmm.

Heather Edwards (21:07)

exploration and adventure and you know, like whatever it is that sex is for you, please do not limit me to, you know, don’t limit it to just these words that I’m saying. But when you tie those to a physical ability to perform, I mean, no one can keep performing their whole life. So then the question is just like, are you ready to let go of all of those things that you want as soon as one of you has an issue to where your genitals aren’t functioning? You know?

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (21:33)

Yeah.

Yeah, so, you know, in talking about like the silence around sexual health, what you’re really describing is like rewriting sexual scripts, like moving beyond these old, tired, worn out, busted dance moves, old defaults to borrow words from an animated film. ⁓ I can’t remember which one it is right now, maybe Megamind or something like that, but that work is like…

Heather Edwards (21:53)

me.

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (22:02)

deeply liberating for people the work that you’re doing, the work that you’re encouraging them and being that guide ⁓ for them, reminding people that, yep, sex is more than penetration, more than orgasm, more than performance. I think that word probably gets a lot of people into angsty troubles, that idea of performance. So how do these kind of rigid sexual scripts

meaning what I mentioned before, penis and vagina is real sex and orgasm is success or whatever. Obviously these are harmful, right? To people’s pelvic health and sexual health. So how are the ways that you see ⁓ those rigid sexual scripts that we need to burn, ⁓ how is that harmful? How do you help patients explore pleasure outside that narrow framework that

maybe came with social, cultural conditioning, whatever they picked up along the way.

Heather Edwards (23:06)

Yeah, so one of the things that you said, how do you help them explore pleasure? One is like, get them to understand that pleasure actually exists and matters, right? Because it doesn’t for everyone. Like part of the sexual scripts and you know, and when we say sexual scripts, like if you are listening to that and you’re like, I don’t know what they’re talking about. Like start, take a piece of paper and write down sex is, you know, or sex is for, and then finish the sentence, right?

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (23:32)

Love that.

Heather Edwards (23:35)

I have a handout with us that has check boxes for it. like, so I give like, you know, 30 different options of what sex is for. People usually read through that and are just like, ⁓ my gosh, like I never even considered it. But, ⁓ but it’s, it’s really good to get an idea. Like, like first you have to see the script, right? You have to see what it is because often sex is for appeasing my partner so they’ll stop being such a grump. Sex is.

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (23:54)

Yeah.

Mm, out.

Heather Edwards (24:04)

for right sex is for making sure my partner knows that I love them because that’s the only way I know how to convey that right. You know they’re like so those can be some of the things and those are really important to understand and so for people who are coming to the place of like well I don’t really like it it’s very hard to have sex there to want to have sex that you don’t actually want right like that you don’t enjoy.

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (24:10)

Hmm. Yeah.

Heather Edwards (24:33)

So if you’re not getting something out of your sexual health or out of your sexual experiences and your sexual connection, because you’re just doing it as a, need to cross this off my chore list, right? Like it’s really hard to want that. It’s hard to want that other chore. And so often some of the problem comes from that lack of actually feeling connected over that, like everyone wants to feel wanted and seen and desired, right?

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (24:33)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Mm

Yeah.

Heather Edwards (25:02)

Like,

and so when sex falls outside of those things and we’re just doing it as an act, we’re just doing it like, we got a vacuum today. it’s Wednesday. It’s the day we have sex, you know, or whatever. That like, there’s just so much that can be lost in that in the way that we connect and in like the deep way that we experience ourselves as a human. And we lose that ability.

to actually see each other for who we are and for what we want and not being able to tie pleasure into it. Like when it’s a chore, you’re not gonna usually vacuum for pleasure, right? You’re not like, I know, me either. ⁓ But like, so the idea that pleasure is even something that everyone is entitled to,

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (25:43)

I don’t.

Heather Edwards (25:59)

is news sometimes, right? So, you know, because if you are coming from a culture where your script is that, you know, what is one of them? It’s the, ⁓ my gosh, I can’t even think, but it in the, then like a tiger in the sheets, like a.

like a lady in the streets and a tiger in the sheets or something like that, right? Where it’s like, there’s this expectation of how you should behave on the outside and how you should behave. And like, it’s your job to kind of like really make sex really good for your partner and things like that. you know, so being able to kind of like break those things down and understand where they’re coming from. And then it’s like, do I actually enjoy that? Like what actually brings me pleasure? Because when we’re only doing

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (26:24)

⁓ yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Heather Edwards (26:48)

sexual acts to serve someone else or to bring someone else pleasure. We’re not asking ourselves what we want. And here’s the kicker with this, right? Like, so when I talk to, if we’re talking about straight couples here, right? Generally, this dynamic is going to be such that a, you know, a woman in a straight partnership is going to feel like they need to be the one to provide and, you know, give their husband sex, right?

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (26:56)

what you want. Yeah.

Heather Edwards (27:17)

Like that is one of kind of the more like the scripts and the norms we kind of have. But often like if you talk to the men in those situations, like what they want is to feel like they’re good at sex. Like they want to feel like they’re actually like making their wives like enjoy it and like actually like having an orgasm and you know, and then it can become like, you know, pressure on their performance for it.

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (27:17)

Mm-hmm.

cultural kind of tropes,

Heather Edwards (27:44)

But like generally they’re also seeking connection. They’re also seeking this like shared experience and like they would love to know like, what is it that you want? Like what are your fantasies? What are the things that you think you would enjoy? What are some of the adventures we can have together? And for women who are taught that like they’re just supposed to provide this service, it’s really hard to be like, wait, what? I’m supposed to like…

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (28:02)

Yeah, yeah.

Heather Edwards (28:13)

Like it’s very scary to ask the question, to answer the question of like, what actually do I want? You know?

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (28:20)

I think that’s

a question that ⁓ in general women overarchingly aren’t even taught to ask or explore. Like regardless of how they identify, you know, sexually, they’re not taught to do that. And that is definitely changing. It’s why I wanted to do this, you know, entire season just based on sex alone.

Heather Edwards (28:31)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (28:43)

And that kind of takes me full circle back to what you mentioned with your sex is like worksheet checklist thing. Okay, so I gotta learn, I gotta know more about that. So first of all, are the boxes that can be checked? And are we talking about things like people like initiation styles, like I like an emotional initiation or physical, or is this like the touch that people like or how they define it or intimacy is or you

types of stimulation or types of play or what’s on that list? Okay. Yeah.

Heather Edwards (29:14)

It is not even, yeah, hang on, let me find it. Let me find it for you.

⁓ Yeah, the idea is more like, it’s more like, what do you get out of it? Like, what is the result that you want from sex, right? I mean, all of those things that you mentioned are also super important, but that’s not what this particular one, because this one is more about getting…

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (29:41)

what you

pull from it, what it provides you versus maybe what you like inside of sex itself.

Heather Edwards (29:48)

Yeah. So you

want me to read the list to you?

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (29:52)

Sure, yeah, I’m sure the listener would love to hear it. Me too.

Heather Edwards (29:53)

Okay. Yes. So

everyone, can get your, you know, hit pause and then get your notebook ready, right? So what is sex for? ⁓ Sexual pleasure and orgasms, quick intimate moment in a busy life, relaxation, to help sleep, pain management, to feel desired, connection, intimacy.

To be present, to escape, to adventure, to serve and care for another, to feel more in your body as service for an exchange, to feel open and vulnerable, to do a fun thing together, to appease, and to deescalate a situation.

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (30:49)

Wow.

Heather Edwards (30:51)

Yeah. So, you know, it’s funny, I thought I had on here like a reward for chores too, but I think that was in the more for my masturbation list.

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (31:02)

Gosh, we’ve got multiple lists to get to. ⁓ my gosh. ⁓

So do you have then, so I want to go a little bit into anatomy, but in order to do that, I think we have to ask one more question because this goes back to the cultural and social conditioning, ⁓ kind of like women, know, really all people, I think everyone probably has a hard time like discussing what they want and need because they never even have been allowed to literally explore or ask that question.

Do you have, I’m sure you do, do you have another checklist that talks about all the types of things that they like, how do they explore pleasure outside that narrow framework of what we came in with? ⁓

Heather Edwards (31:47)

Yeah,

like kind of like a how to explore sort of thing.

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (31:53)

Yeah, it is kind of like a how to because if they’ve not really been allowed, even in their own mind, given themselves permission to explore what kind and it’s not necessarily, well, I mean, a lot of it is based in touch, but some of it is more emotional or energetic as well. So can we talk a little bit about that before? Because that’s gonna like segue us into like understanding the body, like what’s going on.

Heather Edwards (32:15)

Yeah.

Yeah, so ⁓ I don’t have a simple handout for that because it’s kind of lots of different layers of things. ⁓ Two of those layers that I want to talk about that are like often kind of my go-to with this. ⁓ One is understanding power dynamics with sexuality ⁓ and really power dynamics with all of life. But this I…

of like trying to figure out with like what your sexual appetite actually is for. So to engage in a sexual experience, then it can be really important to understand like, what is your actual energy going into this? And what that means is like, if you are like, if someone says like, hey, do you wanna have sex tonight? Like.

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (33:11)

What does that mean?

Heather Edwards (33:12)

What does that mean? Right. And

one of the things that like you kind of have to check is like, are you in the mood to be someone who is like to kind of like be more of a leader? Or are you like, yeah, I would love for you to take the lead and I will follow along. Right. Because that is kind of an agreement that needs to be established a little bit. Right. And also it’s good to sort of be able to name it.

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (33:36)

Mm-hmm.

Heather Edwards (33:39)

So that if you’re realizing you’re like, yeah, I would be game to have sex, but like my brain is exhausted. I’m not going to have all sorts of like fun, creative ideas, but if you do, I am happy to go along with whatever you want. Right. So being able to just kind of get where you are with that. ⁓ and so, and then like, and so in that case too, like if both, it’s say it’s like date night,

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (33:52)

Yeah, yeah.

Heather Edwards (34:04)

And you’re coming into it and like date night is the night you have sex. Cause you got the babysitter, you know, all of the things, right? But then like you go toward the sexy version of it and you realize that neither of you are actually in the mood to like be creative and make the thing happen. And like, you’re just, bodies are tired. So like having to do something over and over for a long period of time when it’s like, but my like hip and my back is doing this thing or something like,

those are good things to understand. like you said, then if you do can try to just go into it and have sex, right? Then like, you’re probably not going to have a very good experience because no one’s like wanting to step up and do the thing, right? So you can, you know, so with kind of options like that, like using can be in cahoots and realize neither of us are actually in the mood to do this thing.

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (34:42)

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

Heather Edwards (34:56)

isn’t that funny. It’s our sex night. And instead of doing that, what we’re going to do is eat popcorn and watch this movie we’ve been dying to watch. And it’s going to count as sex because we approached it from this sexual, because that’s what we’re the mood for, right? On our sexual, you know, appetite, that’s what we’re in mood for. The other option that I always recommend for long-term partners is to have the laziest version of sex possible.

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (35:06)

Mm-hmm.

That’s what you got. ⁓

Heather Edwards (35:25)

that you’d know will just work. Right? Like usually it’s going to involve like a, like a favorite toy or something that like helps get things there faster. No one has to move a whole lot. It’s a position that’s real comfortable for everyone. You know, you can also be in cahoots about like, my God, we’re both exhausted, but look at us making this thing happen. You know? And right. So then it’s also this really fun, sweet connecty approach to have really like.

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (35:47)

love that approach.

Heather Edwards (35:55)

boring, quickie sex, but like, by God, you got it done. Right. And then it’s like, and then you win. Okay. So that’s, it’s totally a win. Right. And so it can turn it from like, you know, if the, from your expectation to realize that you just did some varsity level communication to understand what it was you actually wanted out of sexuality and they’re out of your sexual experience. And then you got it. Right.

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (36:00)

You got it. That’s right.

Yeah.

Yeah, it’s

like taking that what would have been an expectation, which is always so heavy and go to a good place to just anticipation of this is what we’ve got. So let’s see what we can make happen. Yeah.

Heather Edwards (36:28)

I really…

Yeah, right.

So that’s like the foundational underlying piece that is really, really important for us to engage in the kind of sex that we want, right? Like we have to understand on an energetic level, what do we want? Okay. Because so often we just think that there’s like two roles, which is like the top role and the bottom role or whatever it is, you know, in hetero it’s usually just

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (36:47)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Heather Edwards (37:02)

the thing that the man does and the thing that the woman does, right? But like, there’s a lot of variation in that. And like, if you can also look at it as like the person who might be following might be the one that is doing the thing, right? And so what that looks like is a like, tell me what you want and I’ll do it to you, right? That’s the boys to men, I’ll make love to you song. It’s that whole role, right? It’s not a, want to do this thing to you. so, you know, and I like it is that.

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (37:09)

Thank you.

Yeah.

Heather Edwards (37:32)

You tell me what you want and I will do it. Right. So then that other role is the being able to say, like, I’m going to tell you what I want you to do to me. That is also a really good match. Right. if you don’t have someone who like wants to do the thing in that pairing, then you have to kind of like readjust either someone’s got to like step up or you got to just be like, right.

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (37:34)

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

⁓

Mm-hmm.

or they

right. Somebody has

got to know what they want and know how to do it on the other side. That’s a lot of expectation and it can totally drain the anticipation out of all of it.

Heather Edwards (38:01)

That’s great.

Right. So opt for boring sex or not sex instead of bad sex, right? Yeah. And then you’re much more likely to have really good sex when you’re both in the right mood and you can name what those dynamics are, like name what you want out of that.

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (38:08)

Yeah.

Mm-hmm. That’s a good one.

Yeah, that’s

perfect segue into what I was going to talk about next, which is understanding the body. The basic stuff, like we know that sexual success does not have to equal orgasm, so let’s just get that out there and out of the way right now. But I think at a baseline too, when people are curious about, how do I even get there? How do I get my partner there? Or if we started with those basics of, because if,

Heather Edwards (38:30)

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (38:52)

If I back up one step and say, if a patient doesn’t know the difference between like types of orgasm and how they get there in the anatomy, how are they gonna move beyond that towards other things, the different types of touch, different types of intimacy, if they don’t know the basics of anatomy? ⁓ So I guess the first question would be, when we’re talking about exploring that pleasure outside the narrow framework, getting outside of that, there is,

Heather Edwards (39:09)

Yeah.

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (39:22)

all kinds of things, different types of stimulation, different locations, non-penetrative orgasms, let’s go there. ⁓ Talk a little bit about just the anatomy of orgasms in the genders and talk a little bit about biology first before we then can get past that, I think.

Heather Edwards (39:48)

Yeah. You know, like the thing with this is that I like, really hate to pigeonhole orgasm as like a, one version of a physiological response. This is what happens in your body during orgasm because there’s so many different versions and people report so many different experiences and things. And I don’t want to in any way negate like the, the

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (40:03)

Mm-hmm.

Totally.

Heather Edwards (40:16)

big rush of feeling someone gets from having their earlobe sucked on, right? And say, that’s not orgasm because it didn’t happen through this pathway, right? Like, it’s absolutely orgasm. Your skin can give you an orgasm, nipples can give you an orgasm, the inside of your elbow, like any of those things, all of that is absolutely legit, right? And that can be what you want. You can want that over a genital orgasm, and that is just fine, right?

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (40:21)

Mm-hmm.

That is, yeah, absolutely.

Yes.

Heather Edwards (40:45)

And then when we get to like genital orgasms, like it can still be, you know, like sometimes it’s like, well, is it a prostate orgasm or is it an anal orgasm or is it a, you know, a like G spot or is an A spot orgasm or is it a cervical orgasm or is it just a clitoral? Like, I don’t know. I’m kind of in like who cares boat with all of it, you know? Right.

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (41:01)

Mm-hmm.

Well, some people may never have even heard what you just said. Like

they’re like, wait, wait, what? I thought there was one type, but you just listed like five or six different ones. And then you blew our mind because you said non-penetrative orgasm And now I just need to go sit down somewhere. So I think a lot of listeners have, will never even have heard that the different types. And that’s probably where we should like dance in that little arena for a second and go.

Heather Edwards (41:15)

What are all these things?

I know.

No.

Yeah.

So we can.

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (41:37)

There are different types. There’s a lot of different types and you can get them a lot of different ways.

Heather Edwards (41:41)

There are, and the most important part for any of these is that, like, I just want to, like, really say for your audience that none of these things are standalone ways of achieving an orgasm without having your mind and body warmed up and everything being aroused and your body wanting it, right? Like, and this is within the realm of consensual sexuality. I just want to say that there are some

biological triggers that can happen when things feel complicated and non-consensual, they can also happen, but I’m not talking about those in this part of the conversation. So I just want to clarify that. ⁓ So, know, clitoral orgasms are for people who have clitorises are the most common ways that we have orgasms, okay? The clitoris, we’ve got like the little, the…

If you pull back the top of your vulva, I don’t even have my vulva in the room right now. It’s in the other house. know. Um, but there’s the, head of the clitoris is the part like this kind of like at the little apex of the, the labia of your folds as they come down. It’s kind of like that top center part. Um, but the, clitoris goes down further and deeper on each side of the.

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (42:43)

I know, and I’m in the wrong location. I could pull mine. ⁓ I don’t have it.

Heather Edwards (43:05)

the vulva and like around the vagina. when she has legs, right? And so when it gets and it’s ⁓ erectile tissue, so whenever you’re getting aroused, all of the things for someone with a vulva, ⁓ all of the things that are happening are very similar to what the arousal is for someone who has a penis, right? We’re getting an engorgement of our tissue, what that looks like for someone with a vulva.

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (43:08)

She has legs.

Mm-hmm.

Heather Edwards (43:35)

is that the tissue is going to become more pink and it’s going to become more poofy and the vulva is going to kind of like bloom open a little bit more. And that’s because that clitoris, that erectile tissue is kind of like poofing things up more. ⁓ And then the wetness that you get ⁓ that happens can happen very differently for everyone. A lack of wetness does not mean that you’re not aroused. But that wetness is also part of

the physiology of extra blood flow coming to the area. And then that extra blood flow causes kind of like a sweating through the vaginal walls. And then that wetness comes down into the vagina. Sometimes it can stay up really high. And especially like with what position you’re in, if you’re on your back, it might be that you’re lubricated, but it’s not coming out to the vulva, right? So you can work with that in any way.

always having extra lube. sometimes you can like get really wet at the beginning and then it kind of like fades away, but you’re still super into it. So using wetness as a source of, ⁓ like measurement of how turned on you are is not generally a great idea. And I also want to throw out neither is erection. Right. And this is the thing that I think screws us up a lot is because like,

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (44:53)

Mm-hmm.

Heather Edwards (44:59)

we use erection as this idea of like ⁓ sexual self-worth, both for the person who has the erection and also for the person who is judging their attractiveness by whether or not someone has an erection when you’re sexual, right? So if you lose an erection during sex, can feel too like, if it’s in a hetero relationship, like if a man loses an erection, that can kind of like…

kill it not because the erection like not because he’s not turned on anymore but because all of a sudden it shifts the dynamic and there’s like this thing that can make like women feel like oh he’s not into me or he’s not into this when like that’s not necessarily the case whatsoever and so allowing ourselves to have like all sorts of different physiological responses and like talk to each other about hey is this working for you are you still turned on you want to keep going does this feel good

You know, and being able to work with that is really important. So you, so even when talking about the physiology of like arousal and what means turned on, like you still have a brain and you still have to check in about how those things are working. You might also be like super turned on and have like, know, your, your body’s like super aroused, everything’s wet. And then all of a sudden you just feel like something feels weird and I don’t want to do this anymore. Great. Then.

you say that and you can not have sex. don’t have to have sex because you are aroused. You don’t have to not have sex because one of your signs of arousal is fading away. Right? So, yeah, does that make sense? Do I need to clarify any points there.

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (46:34)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, I think that we started off talking about gender differences in orgasms. I love that you went into the anatomy of the clitoris because it’s not been that long since it was actually correctly mapped, which is another mic drop moment. Because I think people assume that, we’ve always known what the anatomy is of

Heather Edwards (47:01)

Mm-hmm.

Great.

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (47:10)

of females and no we haven’t.

Heather Edwards (47:13)

Well, except that we did like a long, long time ago, like, and then it just kind of got erased, right? And now we’ve had to like relearn a whole lot of it. So yeah, it’s frustrating.

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (47:17)

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, it’s horrible. It’s horrible. Let’s talk about male anatomy for just a second. ⁓ Well, we talked about most of them being like ⁓ clitoris-based orgasms, but we didn’t really go into what the other types may be and then talk about penis-owner orgasms.

Heather Edwards (47:31)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Yeah, so if as far as talking about different like physiological types of orgasms, right?

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (47:57)

Yeah, I think it’s how people, because people might feel them differently, like time to time and go, what is that? That one happened somewhere else and then this one was somewhere different or, ⁓ know, sex duration, et cetera.

Heather Edwards (48:00)

Yeah.

Yeah.

So yeah, so there’s the clitoral orgasm, which is usually achieved with like direct clitoral stimulation and usually like clitoral, like it’s the head of the clitoris, which is what we think of for like clitoral stimulation. ⁓ internally, like internal in the vagina, you can, when you are aroused at the front wall of the vagina, there is more erectile tissue around the urethra.

that is the periorithral gland and what is usually referred to as the G spot. And the G spot can be like maybe the back of the clitoris, the periorithral gland, you know, some different pieces, but there’s definitely like a place that is like a, yeah, that spot, you know, at the front of the vagina for most people, right? ⁓ If you’re not turned on, you’re not gonna find it because it has to really like already be kind of like engaged and involved in.

Maybe you’ve had the experience to where it’s like you’re having sex and everything feels pretty good. And then you start getting a little more turned on. Then all of a sudden it’s like, wow, what is that spot? You know, that can be that sensation of kind of that like G spot sensation. But you can also kind of have a spot toward the back of the vagina that can feel really comfortable. And also ⁓ you can, the cervix, like you can have a cervical stimulation if, know, for people who still have a cervix.

where that can be a very different sort of orgasm. ⁓ The clitoral orgasm and the G-spot and vaginal orgasm are generally gonna come from the pudendal nerve. And then the cervical orgasm is going to be a vagal nerve response. And so that’s really kind of cool. And so for people, and we learned that because the vagus nerve,

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (49:59)

It is.

Heather Edwards (50:03)

is separate from the spinal column. So people who have had spinal cord injuries were still reporting having orgasms and it didn’t make any sense. How could they have orgasms, you know? And it was because of the vagal stimulation that still happens in the internal organs of which the cervix is part of, right? So…

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (50:05)

Mm-hmm. Spinal cord injuries. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah. I remember when I

first read that paper, I was like, I think I did fist pumps. I was like, my God, this is amazing. Yeah.

Heather Edwards (50:27)

Right? And go!

Right. So super cool. And some people might really hate it when things hit their cervix on the inside. Right.

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (50:36)

Yeah. And for people who

are no longer cervix owners, it’s okay. There are other ways to get there. Yeah.

Heather Edwards (50:43)

Right. So many different ways. And then

like in the thing, like anally too. So we’ve got around the anus, like even just externally around the anus, like it’s all the same innervation as the clitoris and around the vagina and the vulva. And so all of that, like even just externally can feel really, really good. And I say that because sometimes people feel bad about realizing that things around their anus feel good or having a finger inside their anus that it feels

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (50:50)

Mm-hmm.

Heather Edwards (51:12)

And it’s for people, know, it’s the same thing like for the penis and the scrotum and the like, it’s the same nerves. It all feels good because it feels good. Right. So it’s okay. It’s okay for those things to feel good. ⁓ Also, and I just want to say like with anally, the wall between the vagina and the anus is not particularly thick. When we look at the pictures of the side, it looks like

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (51:20)

I’m glad we’re getting that out in the open right now. Exactly.

Heather Edwards (51:41)

you know, it looks like the, the, the clitoris and the urethra are pretty far away from like the anus and the rectum, because it looks like the vagina takes up space, but the vagina doesn’t take up space if nothing’s in it. Right. So you can also stimulate the G-spot and all of those delightful places in the, the, like, you know, that you can in the vagina with stimulation through your anus. So like,

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (51:54)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Heather Edwards (52:09)

All of that’s in play. They’re not like magical different spots. It’s just like, I think my biggest tip is like, find the spot that’s really good and keep doing the thing that feels good on it. Right? And see where you get. So for penis owners, that’s going to be similar. Usually penis owners are going to know what feels good on their penis. that’s also a thing.

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (52:20)

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. How about for penis owners? We got to… Yeah.

Heather Edwards (52:38)

You know, for anyone who’s partnered with anyone with any sort of genitals, like talk to each other about what you like done with your genitals. And if you feel comfortable with like showing someone how you like to have your genitals touched. Great. Maybe it feels OK to like, like direct their hand on it. ⁓ You know, and if you’re someone who is like, well, I don’t want to like feel like I don’t know what to do. Like you are not the expert on anyone else’s body, but your own. So if someone is willing to like teach you what

feels good on their body by all means take every lesson that they will give you, right? Because then you can take that and run with it and it can be really fun. ⁓ but so same thing with like we were talking about the, like with the anus, anal stimulation around the outside can feel really fantastic. ⁓ people with penises have a prostate, which is, will feel kind of like a walnut size, like a, a ⁓

more solid section toward like in the direction of the penis. ⁓ that’s not super far in, like, you know, if you’re using one finger, it’s like, like, you don’t have to go real deep to, to find kind of where that is and stimulating that and just kind of like rubbing, tickling it, you know, sometimes a vibrator or a different toys, things like that. Those can feel really great. And the, know, you can have, you can have an orgasm from prostate stimulation.

You can also have just, I have orgasms from external stimulation, know, external around the anus, external, you know, around the vulva, like with the labia, you can do all sorts of fun, different things with, know we, I’m going back and forth between, cause I don’t really draw a lot of lines between genitals because you know, some women have penises and some men have vulvas and like, we’re just kind of all over the place and it all comes from the same place and you have it.

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (54:07)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, yeah, we just talk about

that basic anatomy and then just apply it however fashion it applies to you.

Heather Edwards (54:33)

Right. So it’s like you

just find the things that feel good and do them and like, don’t be afraid to play with things in a way that seems like strange. maybe like tug on your labia a little bit, like maybe like roll that skin on, you know, on the scrotum or like, like tug and play with it and massage it in different ways. And, you know, like it doesn’t have to be like one way of engaging.

Right. Which is, you know, we always think like, what is the right way? What’s Cosmo say is the top 10 ways to do this thing. Right. Like, like, no, like play and be curious and, know, and try different things and see what sticks, like see what are the things that are really good. Cause when just the act of doing that makes your brain have to actually assess like what feels good in my body. Right. And go from there.

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (55:10)

See ya.

That

is so spot on where I was hoping that we would kind of go in that direction, but because by talking about anatomy and physiology and kind of the mechanics and the tissue of what happens with orgasm, you begin to realize there’s countless ways to actually get to the same place without it having to be penetrative. You don’t have to have a particular sexuality. And I think that for men too, because they…

will not often go to pelvic PT or OT when they need it, thinking, that’s not for me. Yes, absolutely, it is for you. Or, ⁓ no, I’m a, know, hetero male, can’t do anal play or whatever. Actually, no, you might find that you learn a whole lot from trying that. it does push back those boundaries. It does give people permission to go. It’s all the same tissue and the same nerves, and we have to figure out how we wanna get to point B from point A.

and then set aside all of these kind of cultural and social narrow ⁓ ideas of ⁓ sexuality.

Heather Edwards (56:33)

Absolutely. like once you kind of like can crack that facade, all of a sudden it’s like, my gosh, there’s so many things, you know, it’s so freeing. ⁓ And so that can be lovely. ⁓ right. Right. And like, and pleasure can be yours if you want it to be right. Even without a partner.

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (56:43)

So freeing. Yeah.

pleasure is just around the corner. just, it’s got to figure out which corner.

That’s right. Without a partner.

Heather Edwards (56:59)

Yeah. I mean, and some of those like just fun, silly things like that. liked have like go into your kitchen and like pick three kitchen utensils that you would like your partner to use on your body in ways that you tell them how to. Right. And like, you can have this whole big hilarious things and then maybe then you swap. Right. So you both do that. And then like, and then it’s like, okay, now you go pick three things that you want to use on me. And I’m going to let you know how that feels like it’s all these things where it’s like.

like having some control over what’s done to you versus receiving what someone else wants to do with you and like and playing with different sensations. I mean some of those can be super surprising. It’s like I really didn’t think I would like a fork dragged across my back and now I want that every single time, you know, so yeah.

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (57:45)

Yeah. Yeah, we also then

don’t get hemmed in by achieving whatever that satisfaction is for you in the same way every time because just like we can’t do the same workout for fitness, like you can’t just go run two miles and do the same plank and whatever, your body accommodates to that over time and you have to have different input for exercise, different input, you know, for sex ⁓ instead of just the same thing all the time.

Heather Edwards (58:03)

See you later.

Thank you.

Yeah.

And also, you know, there’s the like for people who have a hard time having an orgasm or maybe not ever had an orgasm before. Like, I do not think it can be understated that orgasms are so often like when you’re looking at the stars and someone says like, hey, there’s Pleiades, you know, which is this little cluster of seven stars. But I swear to God, goodness, as soon as you look at it, it goes away. Right.

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (58:41)

Yeah.

Heather Edwards (58:42)

You have to look beside it to then see it. Right. And so like making orgasm an intentional goal is usually the way that you’re not going to get to orgasm. So, so, so in that really making sure that you’re feeling your body and feeling what you enjoy and being playful and being connected, ⁓ is so often a better way to get there. then also like.

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (58:46)

Mmm, yeah.

Heather Edwards (59:11)

If we have an idea of like, well, orgasm should feel like this. Like it should feel like this big explosive fireworks thing every time. Like it doesn’t. Right. Sometimes like you might have orgasms that feel like that. You might have orgasms that feel like they take you up to an edge and then they just kind of keep you on this crazy little roller coaster that feels almost torturous because you just can’t get off of it. Right. You know, like it, and they can be subtle. They can feel like they’re kind of coming up and then they just kind of crest, like a gentle wave and back.

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (59:18)

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah

Heather Edwards (59:40)

Like there’s so many different ones. So like that being said, feel all of the feelings that you’re feeling and appreciate and enjoy those. Right. So don’t judge them all against this, you know, giant bang of an orgasm. You think it’s going to be like appreciate all of those like intense, wonderful, lovely, delightful.

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (59:54)

Yeah.

Heather Edwards (1:00:05)

like put different words on them, feelings that you have, because like those very well might also be orgasmic and kind of have their own version of a crest and a fall.

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (1:00:16)

Yeah, that reminds me,

I mean, I lived at the beach for like a decade, two decades, over two decades. And so what it reminds me of is going out and kind of like body surfing and every wave is different. And some just drag you on the bottom, you know, but you still come up exhilarated. And then some are very gentle and some just like smack you down on the shore. you know, and all of it’s fun, know, body surfing and all of us different ways is fun. But that’s what it kind of reminds me of. If you’re just willing to like ride that way, if you don’t…

Heather Edwards (1:00:30)

You

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (1:00:44)

know how it’s gonna feel and where it’s gonna take you, but it’ll be awesome. It can be awesome, you know, each time.

Heather Edwards (1:00:44)

Yeah.

Yeah, just

don’t judge it against an expectation.

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (1:00:53)

yeah, what you had last time. ⁓ that’s a killer. Yeah. So how…

Heather Edwards (1:00:54)

Right. Sometimes they can

pick up on you, right? Like those waves too, like all of a sudden there’s like huge waves. You’re like cruising along sexually and everything’s like, yeah, it’s good. It’s good. And then all of a sudden, oh my gosh, you know, it’s like, where did that come from? Yeah.

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (1:01:00)

⁓ yeah, smack you right in the back of the head.

Bam. Yeah, I love it.

I love it. So that is a really good way to segue into, I mean, I’ve got so many other questions and we might have to circle back and just do a part two on this, because there’s just so many things that you can talk about, because we didn’t even get to talk about the amazing expertise that you have in just inclusivity, because we’ve been talking about kind of a genderless experience here, but there are also…

specific challenges for populations in the LGBTQIA community that we need to talk about. So ⁓ what I want to ask is, well, first, would you be willing to come back for part two? And then the second thing is, how do people, so they probably at this point, you’re listening and you’re like, ⁓ I think I might have that issue or I might need to push my boundaries on definitions a little bit or.

Heather Edwards (1:01:49)

Sure thing.

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (1:02:01)

I might need to learn some new things or maybe I just need to talk about anatomy or I am having pain down there. Any of those reasons could send you to a provider and then you’re like, now what do I do? How do I ask? If you’re talking to a PCP and just for the listener’s sake here, I also want to emphasize that for all 50 states in the United States at least, you might be outside the US and I can’t speak for that, but you do have direct access to physical therapy, pelvic physical therapy, depending on your insurance.

but legally you would have that direct access, but you still might be at your PCP, you still might be at your urologist or your GYN. How would you have them ask that provider to say, where can I go for a pelvic floor ⁓ sexual counseling referral? What can I do?

Heather Edwards (1:02:50)

Yeah, so the provider might not have any idea, right? It’s lovely to think that…

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (1:02:54)

Yeah, and they might dismiss them

and go, ⁓ that’s normal, or it’s age, or it’s stress, or just use more lube, or have a glass of wine. All the things that make us want to just lose it. Yeah.

Heather Edwards (1:02:58)

Right.

Right. Yeah,

because there’s more to it than that. ⁓ So aasect.org, A-A-S-E-C-T dot org has ⁓ a directory where you can find people who are nationally certified. ⁓ And so that’s really helpful for, and then also for pelvic physical therapy, ⁓ if you go to pelvicglobal.com, there is a directory there and those are all going to be pelvic health providers, but then they also are going to list

if they are if they do sexual health and kind of like what they do there and you can it’s a it’s a geo directory so you can put in your zip code and then find who is close to you that way ⁓ and then you can ask about those practitioners with your i mean you can certainly ask your doctor be like hey i’m having some of these issues and i’ve you know i’ve searched a little bit and it seems like maybe this would be a helpful thing for me ⁓ i’ve found do you have anyone that you tend to refer to

Um, I found a few names, like, do you know anything about any of these people? Like you can kind of ask it that way too, to where it’s like, I’ve done the work, I’ve seen the things. What do you think about this? You know, can we collaborate on this decision about, um, you know, where I might want to go next? And, and I just say that to be like, if you’re just going and hoping that the doctor is going to have the answers for you on what to do next with your sexual health, like you might be disappointed and like,

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (1:04:30)

Yes, maybe. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And the other thing I wanted to point out too is if you do feel it dismissed or invalidated or kind of blown off, then you were. Don’t second guess yourself, trust yourself on that. And also realize that all of these providers out there typically will answer questions for you. Like I know probably in your practice, in my practice, ⁓

Heather Edwards (1:04:30)

But don’t let that stop you. Like don’t let that be like the end of the road. Yeah.

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (1:04:56)

I will do a 10 minute free consult and say, you know, this is a good fit, or maybe this is the other person might be a best fit for you. Many providers will talk to you directly in the therapy space. So that’s even less fear and less risk knowing that you can just reach out and ask those questions and go, is this a good fit? Can you help me?

Heather Edwards (1:05:16)

Yeah, and one of the, so as a sexuality counselor, when I do that separate from pelvic PT, which I don’t actually see patients for pelvic PT right now, so everything is like, it falls under more of a coaching mode and I can do coaching across state lines. And so it’s one of those things that’s where often what happens, you know, is that I’m just trying to help people understand the system and like, here are the pieces of this that I can help you with. I am,

These are the other practitioners that I think would be really important on your, as my colleague, Dr. Uchenosai always says on your sexy dream team, you know, ⁓ because the other thing is sometimes when people go and they talk to a doctor, you know, if like, if that doctor’s like, yes, I like, know all about this, you need to see a urogyne you need to see a sex therapist, you need to get EMDR, and you need to go to a pelvic PT. And that’s a lot.

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (1:05:53)

Yeah, I love it.

Heather Edwards (1:06:09)

Right? So sometimes there can be like this, like, like so much stuff and people are like, okay, I cannot afford to do all of this at the same time. And I don’t have time to do all of this. One of the things that sometimes I kind of just like help with is being able to help navigate like what’s important and who’s good and what might be effective and like maybe what sort of like line and let’s see how we can figure this out. And like,

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (1:06:09)

Mm-hmm. Yes.

Right? Yeah.

Heather Edwards (1:06:38)

the most frugal way possible and like what are some free resources and go from there and then and pick some stuff out from there. So I’m so sorry about that.

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (1:06:50)

Well, we are going to wind this down and truly if it’s okay to come back and do a part two, I would absolutely love to do that because I only reached the halfway point in the questions that I had to ask you and I really want to speak to ⁓ marginalized communities and people who struggle to find care or struggle to feel validated and get medically gaslit or worse when they’re trying to seek out the right providers.

and also people with pelvic pain, because we really didn’t get to talk about that either. So tell, if you would share with everyone where they can find you for coaching and counseling, and then we will carry on with part two.

Heather Edwards (1:07:34)

Sounds good. Yeah. You can find me on my website is Heather Edwards Creations at create.com. I was like, wait a second. What am I saying here? Yeah. My email is info at Heather Edwards, creations.com. You can also find me on Instagram ⁓ at Heather Edwards creations and also at vino and vulvas. You can also, if you want to learn more about vino and vulvas, vino and vulvas.com will show you.

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (1:07:45)

Yeah.

Heather Edwards (1:08:03)

that and I’ll have shows starting again ⁓ in 2026. you can have the dates. The dates might actually already be posted. So if you want to schedule your time around coming to come visit Asheville and see a VMV show. Yeah, you can do that.

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (1:08:18)

Love it.

I absolutely love it. Thank you so much, Heather, for joining me today, and I look forward to continuing the conversation.

Heather Edwards (1:08:27)

Thank you so much.