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It’s somewhat astounding that in the year 2023, there is still a long list of taboo topics for women which our culture at large avoids talking about (or shuns you when you do). Whether it’s a miscarriage, painful periods, painful sex…it’s like there is a huge sign hanging in the sky over America that reads, “Good Vibes Only – So ladies…shut up about what’s going on down there!”
But simply not talking about our struggles…doesn’t mean the pain or struggling goes away. And oftentimes, avoiding the taboo topics for women, just makes a person feel more isolated.
Even worse, when we avoid talking about the struggles we face with our health, our health suffers and pain lingers longer than it should. This pain and suffering creeps into all areas of our lives, leaving us struggling more and more. The truth is there are solutions to the problems that women face, but we need to start by feeling safe to talk about them.
Bonnie Gross decided enough was enough! She had suffered long enough with pelvic pain that eventually required surgical intervention and extensive pelvic health therapy. She knew she had to tell her story…so that other women were no longer afraid to discuss the challenges they faced. She started writing a sitcom…which turned into a film.
Then she met Nancy Boyd through a friend…and together they produced and directed Lady Parts. The film brings comedy to a terribly painful condition and highlights the need for better communication and openness in the medical community and our personal communities.
Dr. Ginger Garner had the joy of sitting down with these two accomplished ladies to discuss the movie and how they see the paradigm shifting to improve women’s health and sexuality.
Bonnie Gross is an award winning comedy writer and producer with a passion for telling stories around female health care and sexuality. Originally from Philadelphia but now a New York transplant, she earned her Bachelor’s in Media Production from the University of Alabama and completed the UCLA Professional Program for TV Comedy Writing in 2018. Bonnie was named one of ISA’s Top 25 Screenwriters to Watch in 2020. She has worked in post-production for several years on numerous television shows at Encore Hollywood and Light Iron. Also, she has written, produced, and edited comedy videos for the media brand, “It’s a Southern Thing,” as well as her own comedy videos on TikTok. She hopes to translate her vast production experiences into making “Lady Parts,” in hopes that it can raise awareness on some of the many vaginal health issues people face.
Nancy Boyd, the director of Lady Parts, is from a small town in Michigan, where you can’t walk into a grocery store without running into your elementary school teacher or a friend’s mom every time. She started making short films in fifth grade, but in undergrad at Madonna University, she started her own freelance photography and video business. She moved to Los Angeles to pursue an MFA in Film and Television Production at the University of Southern California. Before the age of 30, she will have directed three indie feature films. In the past few years, she was diagnosed with vaginismus and hopes that Lady Parts makes people feel less awkward getting help and talking about their bodies.
00:00 Dr. Ginger Garner: Hi everyone and welcome to this edition. We’re into season 2 now, which I’m very excited about. We are talking about women’s safety in health care and I have some amazing fan girling all over the place guests today. I can’t believe the work that they’re doing and I am so glad as a pelvic PT that they are doing this work because it is why for all the pelvic PT’s out there listening, this is why we do what we do. We are so motivated to help people. So for those of you who are listening and you know maybe you’re not a pelvic PT and you’re wondering what is this about women’s health care safety and women’s safety in health care.
Well, if you haven’t been introduced to the term medical gaslighting yet, this is the time to do that because studies show that female patients, people of color, they are more likely to have their symptoms dismissed. And not just dismissed, but shamed, made fun of completely marginalized, made to feel like, which is what gaslighting is made to feel like you’re crazy. And since I think that was the word of the year last year, was gaslighting.
Bonnie Gross: Really? Yes, it was. Makes sense.
Dr. Ginger Garner: It does. So I don’t want to, you know, insult everyone’s intelligence by defining gaslighting, but it was, I think it was 2022’s word of the year.
But you know, there are stats like this. Women face longer waits to be diagnosed with not just things all related to pelvic health, but it’s that plus cancer, heart disease. They are treated less aggressively for traumatic brain injury. They’re less likely to be offered pain medications. The list just goes on and on. And this being my 27th year of practice, I just want to go [mimicks head exploding], you know, because I’ve seen and heard so many of the stories.
And so this is why we have our wonderful guest on today. We have Bonnie Gross, who is the executive producer and screenwriter, and Nancy Boyd, who is the director and producer of the new film, Lady Parts. I want to launch into their big bios, but because it’s so fantastic, but I also want to hear from them because I’ve already been talking too much. So let’s just, can I just kick it off with this basic question? And that’s, you know, tell me about your stories and how you met and the catalyst for all this.
02:30 Bonnie Gross: Yeah. So like I said, I’m the screenwriter. So Lady Parts is based off my own personal journey. I had what’s called vulvar vestibulitis and then also vaginismus. So just a lot of fun going on.
And it was a long year journey where basically I had exactly like you said, a lot of medical gaslighting where I would go to doctors. They would tell me, oh, it’s just in your head. You know, I even had people suggest I try drinking for painful sex or, you know, just things that would amaze people.
After a couple of years, I finally found a specialist that was properly diagnosing me and treating me. I ended up getting a surgery, the vulvar vestibulectomy surgery. And then I went to pelvic floor therapy. I did dilators, all the fun there and went back home to my parents’ house during the time because it was very expensive and you know, you need somebody to take care of you for that whole process.
So that’s what the film really centers around is that period of time of doing the surgery, recovering from the surgery and your interpersonal relationships with people you’re either dating, sleeping with, your parents, anybody that could be involved in that process, because it’s such a topic that we don’t feel comfortable talking about, but it affects so many women and so many people.
And so that was where this film kind of came to light was just, you know, after it was all said and done and trying to research stuff myself and coming up short. And so it’s the film I wish I could have watched when I was going through it.
04:26 Dr. Ginger Garner: Fantastic. How long did you say again for our listeners, how long did it take to really get a proper diagnosis?
04:34 Bonnie Gross: I would say about three years of actively looking. It had always hurts to put in tampons. I always found riding a bike to be uncomfortable, but again, we don’t talk about it. So I just assumed these were kind of normal things. And, it wasn’t until, you know, I hit college and was sexually active and stuff like that that I really was like, “oh, this is something that I need to start going to doctors about.
04:58 Dr. Ginger Garner: Yeah. Yeah. Three years, three years, three years. There are so many diagnoses out there related to pelvic health where that seems to be a common answer is two and a half years. It’s not 12 months. It’s not six weeks. It’s years.
And so if you’re, if you’re out there and this is happening to you, um, this, you know, this talk that we’re having today, um, is all about you getting the help that you need because you deserve it. It’s what women’s healthcare and anyone who identifies as female is what your healthcare should look like.
And so I hope that talking about this so openly and transparently today really helps you all.
So thank you so much.
This sounds like a really good time to do, to talk a little bit more about you, Bonnie and Nancy, I will let you answer that question in just a minute, but just to kind of like celebrate Bonnie for just a second. She is an award-winning comedy writer and producer.
She loves to tell stories, um, around female healthcare and sexuality. We need so many more people doing that. You are a New York transplant, is that right? [Yes – Nods] And you went to the University of Alabama. You completed the UCLA professional program for TV comedy writing in 2018. You have a bachelor’s in media production, you’ve been named one of ISA’s top 25 screenwriters to watch in 2020.
She’s worked on post-production stuff ranging from Encore Hollywood and Light Iron. She has written, produced and edited comedy videos for it’s a Southern Thing. And I watched some of those because I am from the South. I’m from North Carolina. So right up on the edge. And those were funny, I think the one about what mama says and the game show. I was like, I’m still laughing. It was great.
And then some of your videos onTikTok and she hopes to translate her vast production experiences into, you know, Lady Parts. Obviously now that you’re in the final throes of doing that in hopes to raise awareness. So thank you for being you, Bonnie.
So Nancy, tell me about your story. Oh, and I also need to, how did you guys meet each other? I’ve got to figure that out.
07:29 Nancy Boyd: Yeah, of course. Um, well, my name is Nancy and I’m the director of Lady Parts and I am so blessed to be the director of Lady Parts. I have vaginismus and I was lucky, luckier than Bonnie in some ways, because I didn’t really have any medical gaslighting happening to me.
A lot of my hurdles were personal and cultural, and, there was a lot of religious trauma and shame that comes around just having a body as a woman. And I felt really uncomfortable talking to doctors about this pain that I had, and when I would talk to friends or family, people don’t really know that vaginismus is a thing because we’re taught to not really talk about that kind of stuff.
So I thought that it must all be in my head. I kind of did my own gaslighting because of the culture around us. And, um, it wasn’t until I was, I went to my first gynecology appointment when I was 26, because I was so scared to go to the gynecologist because of the pain that was happening.
It wasn’t until I went to the gynecologist and I was so, so, so nervous. And I was saying, I like, nothing can go inside of me. Essentially. I’m not sure how you’re going to do this pap smear. I get a lot of pain, like during sex, I get a lot of pain pretty much any time anything that tries to go in there.
And they asked me if I had pain, um, putting in tampons. And I said, yes. And then she said, it sounds like you have vaginismus. And that was the first time that I heard that term. And luckily I’m in LA and there’s a place that was very, very, very helpful and wonderful to me.
So, I had a good experience in the medical community, but I think that the important thing that we want to do with this film is make it easier for us all to talk about these problems that we’re having and even not problems, but just talking about having a vagina because there’s not really an owner’s manual. And, we need to all be comfortable talking about it because it’s going to make life so much easier for us.
So Bonnie and I actually met through a mutual friend and Bonnie’s coworker. Her name is Meghan Griesbeck. She’s another one of our producers on Lady Parts. Bonnie works with Meghan and Meghan heard that she was writing the story. She knew about my vaginismus and she knew about the kind of stories that I like to tell as a director and she said, you really have to meet Nancy and we did. And it was just kismet.
10:28 Dr. Ginger Garner: Wow. That’s fantastic. So, you know, both of you have shared your stories and how you felt. And for those of you who, you know, are wondering, could I have those things too? It’s worth a playback, you know, two or three minutes to listen to some of those symptoms. Are there any other symptoms that you would add? And then before we move away from that, I definitely want to celebrate Nancy for a little bit too, and read a little bit more about her, but are there any extra symptoms that you’d say, oh, that’s a red flag, if I could just send that out there into the world, you know, so you women would know.
11:03 Nancy Boyd: The feeling of the door closing on your vagina. I think that when I described that to partners or anyone, they didn’t really understand it because things are supposed to go into a vagina, but the feeling that the door is closed completely. I think is definitely a symptom that I didn’t know was real until, until I got the diagnosis.
11:30 Dr. Ginger Garner: Yeah, that’s a really descriptive way to put it, because oftentimes, you know, that’s what I do for a living. And so it can come across when you’re describing it as too kind of antiseptic, too medical, too jargony. So I like that description. Thank you.
11:54 Bonnie Gross: Yeah. Yeah. I always say like, you know, your body better than anyone else. And if something doesn’t feel right, then it probably 100% isn’t right? And always go find better help then, because, you know, you deserve somebody who believes you when you say something hurts or doesn’t feel right.
12:05 Dr. Ginger Garner: Yeah. And the very premise of, you know, why we’re here talking about this today is (so for Nancy, she didn’t fortunately, thank goodness, like it’s an exception when you haven’t been medically gaslighted) but for those of you, you know, listening that have to know that it’s okay to call it out.
It’s not that you need to be like combative at the office or whatever. You just kind of quietly quit your physician and move on, you know, to another one. And that way you don’t have the stress and the trauma of confronting someone who the reason they medically gaslight you is because their ego is so giant, it can’t fit in the room with you.
You know, oftentimes they don’t understand what those symptoms are. So it’s easier to dismiss it than take it seriously because maybe they just don’t have the background or the training or the education to understand it. So when you feel dismissed, you probably have been and it’s okay to quiet quit it.
So Nancy, let me cheerlead you for just a second, cause I have to do that. [Thank you.] I loved your small town story about being from a small town in Michigan. I am from a small town in North Carolina. And I read that about you that you can’t go to the grocery store without running into your elementary school teacher or your friend’s mom.
Every time that I just kind of, I had to, I had to cackle out loud about that, because it’s so true about where I grew up. And that also explains the whole cultural piece of that. Cause if you’re in a small town, it’s hard enough to talk about issues with someone you trust, but if you’re, if you’re struggling with that, it can just kind of be terrifying, mortifying to do that in a place where everybody knows everybody.
So you started making short films in fifth grade, but an undergrad at Madonna University, you started your own freelance photography and video business, and then made the giant leap to LA to pursue an MFA in Film and Television Production at University of Southern California.
And before the age of 30, yes, you will have directed three indie feature films, which is amazing.
[Thank you]Yeah, absolutely. So thank you for being here. I love that your mission with this film is to, as is in your bio here, to make people feel less awkward about getting help and talking about their bodies.
So there must’ve been a point where you said, I have to do something about this, like a tipping point, you know, like I call it a critical mass point where you reach a point where you’re like, yeah, I can’t do it this way anymore. I can’t just get better and move on with my life. I have to help somebody else with this. Can, can you describe when that happened?
15:10 Nancy Boyd:
I think for me, honestly, it was, it was talking to Bonnie, because I mean, I knew that this was happening with me and I knew that it was something in my life, but I never knew anyone personally who had the same issue. And there are a lot of similarities between Bonnie and I. Bonnie has some differences as well, but there are a lot of similarities and finally having someone that I could talk to about that made me realize, Oh, like I’m, I’m truly not the only one. Like you see statistics online and those are just numbers. They don’t seem like real people. And then you see a real person in front of you and talk to them and you realize, Oh, I’m not just a number. I’m a person. I have this, this problem and there’s, there are other people out there that also have this problem. And, once I started talking to Bonnie about it, it made me feel so seen and I wanted to give that feeling to other people by making this film.
16:13 Dr. Ginger Garner: Oh, I saw your expression, Bonnie, when Nancy said that. I’m sure you’ve got some things to say about it.
16:29 Bonnie Gross: Yeah. I was about to say, I’m like holding back tears.
16:33 Nancy Boyd: We’re a very cry positive set. We cry a lot.
16:38 Bonnie Gross: I was like, bring on the tears.
I know I think that was the other thing too, but no, it just, it brings me so much joy because like, you know, I remember feeling that way, like I got the surgery done, like I’m good, you know, I’m like, I’m healthy.
I’m on a track to like, you know, things being better. And that feeling is still a feeling like, yeah, you’re just a number. You don’t know anyone. You don’t, you can’t talk to anyone.
And I joined these Facebook groups where, you know, women were talking about like either vulvodynia, vaginismus or both, or pelvic floor. And it was the first time you start to realize you’re like, oh, okay. It’s not just me. Yeah. Like you start to realize its people all over the world. And when you like have that connection with somebody else, like it’s really indescribable because like you both feel like you went through this really strange, weird experience and then you just get to like bond over it and laugh about it, which like was a big thing too.
Like this is, you know, very much a dramedy, like there’s drama, but there’s also a lot of comedy in it and cause that’s more real life. And so I think for us getting to like talk about it and getting to laugh about it is like the most cathartic thing and getting to meet other people while we were even doing this process, we’ve had people reach out on Instagram, we’ve had people even on our own set, kind of talk about their own issues.
And so I think this whole process just kind of every day, we were just like constantly reminded of like why we’re doing this and why it’s so important. And it’s really cool to like see that unfold in front of you.
18:11 Nancy Boyd: Yeah. I think Bonnie made a really good point too, because once you start talking about one thing, like if we start talking about our vaginismus, it doesn’t, someone doesn’t have to have vaginismus to relate or be a part of the conversation. They start thinking about their own body and their own issues that they have, or their own questions that they have.
Nothing, you know, has to be wrong, but sometimes people have questions and, you know, we have a lack of sex education in a lot of areas. And just once you open the door to talking about things that you’re told you shouldn’t talk about in a polite company, it opens the door to talking about so much more and communication and education and knowledge is a power and agency, and that’s something that people need.
19:11 Dr. Ginger Garner: Yeah. Yeah. It allows us to shift the paradigm because you mentioned what the paradigm was. Oh, we don’t talk about that stuff, right? In polite conversation. And so we get to go, well, actually no, we can do that, you know? And we get to shift the entire kind of blow up the paradigm, if you will, and go, absolutely not. It’s that’s the actual problem is not being able to talk about it.
Nevermind that every historical text start, even stuff into the 1900s. I think Hippocrates said that, you know, the womb is responsible for hysteria, because the womb runs through the entire body and crazy, crazy shit like that. By the way, we can swear.
Because things like this, sometimes you just have to swear. There’s a little research that you can look that up too of swearing, actually helping us relieve stress a little bit better. So, yeah, but it does allow us to kind of blow up that paradigm and say, absolutely not.
That was, you know, the whole being able to hold one gender back and say, no, not only can you not talk about this, but we’re going to put decent pockets in your dresses and your pants either, you know, because all of that is just another form of holding, you know, holding that into other gender back. So when I think about shifting the paradigm, I also think about you guys as filmmakers and as artists and creatives, as women, how hard was this process to make this film? And I’m sure there was a paradigm you had to blow up there, too.
20:54 Bonnie Gross: Yeah, I definitely think it was challenging to get some people on board because the topic itself is not something that anyone really talks about. And, you know, when I had first initially started pitching this out, the original idea was I’m going to pitch it to somebody else to make. And I got a lot of feedback that was like, this is cool, but I don’t think we can do this or I think it’s too much. Sure. I think it, you know it would be a little too out of the box. Or you know, I don’t think there’s an audience for it. I think it’s a little too niche.
Dr. Ginger Garner: [Oh, oh, my God.]
Bonnie Gross: I got that a lot, too.
Dr. Ginger Garner: I just have to sit with that for a moment. Yeah, that’s incredibly ridiculous.
Bonnie Gross: Wow. So it got to the point where I said, OK, well, if I want to get this made, I’m going to have to do it myself. It’s not going to be no one’s going to magically come along and do it. And then so I took my entire life savings from 16 and poured that into this film. And then we did a couple of crowdfunding. We got some donations, which we’re so thankful for. But like I said, because the topic of the film, it’s really hard to sometimes find people who were genuinely interested in helping this topic. And but then the other side of that is we did find amazing people who were really, really excited to help this topic.
22:10 Nancy Boyd: That’s quite I think that we like found the right people too. Like, because it is ‘so much’ as people are saying. We found the perfect group of people who wanted to be a part of it because it was so like, I guess, niche in a way, as they say, like the people who are bold and courageous and really want to have these conversations. And it was great.
22:43 Dr. Ginger Garner So what was the time frame of because I know you experience probably, you know, pushback and what you’re describing some pushback, some, yeah, that’s nice, but we don’t want that. What was the time that, you know, the genesis of the idea to actually feeling like, OK, this is really going to happen. We’re going to be able to do this.
23:06 Bonnie Gross: I would say I started writing it in 2017 when I was at UCLA. It started as a television pilot, actually, like a sitcom. And then nothing really came of it. And then it kind of switched to a feature film. And so that was a couple of year process of writing that. And then it went right into, we started producing it in 2020, I would say. Twenty, twenty. I feel like the years are all melding together from COVID.
Dr. Ginger Garner: We lost a couple of years.]
Bonnie Gross: But yeah, we I’d say once we hit 2021 is like when it really was like, OK, we’re doing this. We started, you know, like let’s attach some people to the project. Let’s find a director. Let’s find a DP. Let’s start talking about, you know, how we’re actually going to do this. And, you know, when we started filming last year for the month of July in Los Angeles. And I think by the first day we got on set, I was like, oh, my God, it’s really real. Like, it’s not just this crazy thing we keep talking about and preparing for. Like, we are here on set, dilators, lights, camera action.
24:23 Dr. Ginger Garner And I saw your nod and use of Intimate Rose, Dr. Amanda Olson. So for those of you who don’t know, you should look up Intimate Rose. It is a woman-owned, physical therapist, pelvic physical therapist-owned and founded company, and it’s wonderful. So I was really excited to see that. They have really great stuff. And I use it all the time in PT.
Bonnie Gross: Yeah, they were wonderful partners for us.
Dr. Ginger Garner: Yeah, that’s that’s awesome. So, you know, I take the message in that number of years because 2017, I think once you reach a certain age, 2017 seems like yesterday, but it’s not. That’s a lot of time. That’s a lot of time that has passed. And, you know, particularly when you’re kind of up against two things as you know, as filmmakers, who are women. Plus as women going through a system that was really created by men, for men. It’s really hard to get to this point.
So I just want to celebrate that you got to this point where now you’re getting ready to, you know, push the film out into the world to give birth to, so to speak, and to all the different places that it needs to be, because as many people as possible need to see this.
There have been so many stories and I’ll just share one. This was a long time ago, over 15 years ago, when I was making the transition from just being an orthopedic PT to realizing, huh, you know, that hip is connected to a pelvic floor. And if a person has hip pain, then I need to be looking at the pelvic floor. Plus, I also had one, two and then three kids.
So if that didn’t show me, then giving birth was about to just blow it all open for me. And so about that, because my oldest will be 18 soon. So it was a little bit over 15 years ago. But one of the common stories I heard over and over again. So for those of you who are listening, you know, maybe you don’t have pelvic pain, but I guarantee you somebody in your friend group does.
And it was a husband of a patient who I was seeing and the biggest struggle was within her own support system of her husband not believing her and saying, and these are caring people, it’s not like an uncaring, abusive relationship. This is a happy marriage and him just not believing and saying, well, all our friends who had kids at that time, they’re OK now. Like, why aren’t you OK? Because she was suffering from the same thing.
And it’s multifaceted. There’s so many drivers. Dietary drive drivers, sleep as a driver, there’s all kinds of reasons that that this pain can be worse. But that just brings up, I think, an important point because women don’t have to wait until they get into the medical system before they already start to feel trauma. It’s the support system that they may or may not have.
So I don’t know if you can speak to that or have heard stories about that, but I just wanted to share that because it’s kind of a big, profound deal. It’s why I always ask my patients, like, do you feel safe? Do you have a good support system as you come in or do you have the time to be able to if they have kids or maybe they just have a really stressful job, to get away, to get into a safe spot and pull out all this, you know, all your toys, I call them toys, pull out all your pelvic floor toys to be able to do this. So what is your experience with that? Because it is an undertaking to get better, you know, even if you have surgery, some don’t have surgery. It’s a commitment.
28:10 Nancy Boyd Yeah, I mean, I think that. Again, there’s a problem with our culture here, too. I guess not a problem exactly, but women are expected to be givers their entire life. It starts from how we’re socialized and we’re taught to give everything. And when you have a partner, sometimes there is penetrative sex involved in like giving. And sometimes you really want to be involved in that. And that’s exactly what you want. But there is sort of a feeling of you want to give that to your partner, too. And when you can’t do that, whether they are the most supportive person in the world, you start to feel like I’m not giving what I need to give.
And we shouldn’t have to feel that way. And I think that’s something that there’s a lot of unlearning that has to be done. And I think that you can have the most supportive partner in the world, but the culture around us and our socialization makes it feel hard to to take the time to make us feel better, too, because in order to go through physical therapy or talk to people about this or even just tell your partner, I’m really hurting. And it’s really making me sad that I can’t enjoy this in the way that I want to. It feels like we’re taking, you know, and we’re taught to not do that.
29:50 Dr. Ginger Garner: Right. And there’s a massive amount of guilt that can come along with that. I call it, you know, packing your guilt bags like. And when you started to describe that situation, I was like, oh, I can feel the guilt bag getting packed right now, like the guilt and the shame of all that getting stuffed into one suitcase. And we haul it around everywhere to the grocery store, to work, to sleep, at night and into our conversations.
And it’s not so easy just to shed it, you know, because we are culturally, socially conditioned to be the nurturer and the caregiver. Plus, you want to do that, you know? Yeah. You want to give pleasure and not just accept, you know, that pleasure back. So it’s just something to validate. You know, we can’t immediately fix it, but it’s something to say that, hey, we understand that’s happening and you’re experiencing that and you’re not alone with that.
30:39 Bonnie Gross: I remember a lot of times like in college, you know, you hear people talk about all these amazing things they were doing in their sex lives and people talk about it. And it’s a hard experience when you’re not having those types of things either. Like you said, culturally, you know, this isn’t the topic we talk about. So, you know, I would have friends that have no idea what vaginismus is, and they’re just talking about it. And at that time, I didn’t feel comfortable saying, hey, well, I have this thing. And I can’t do that.
And you find that you’re like, well, I feel like I’m not connecting with other people. I feel like I’m not connecting with my partner or I’m just lying to myself. Or as Nancy said, I’m gaslighting myself. It can be a really isolating experience.
And I’m really glad I have very, very supportive parents who, like you’ll see in the film, they are very, very supportive and kind of flip the page on that kind of narrative from the parents being scared of vaginas and instead being very almost too supportive. So, like I said, I’m very lucky I had them for the process of surgery and pelvic floor, but I do remember bringing my toys to study abroad. And I remember it was really challenging to find time like we were in such small spaces and there was like eight people in the house and finding time to be like, “OK, I’m going to go off for 30 minutes. No one no one come in my room. I know we don’t have locks, but, you know, I would really appreciate. I’m taking an important phone call.”
32:23 Dr. Ginger Garner: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I think I want to pull one thing out that both of you had mentioned because your support network is everything. And, you know, people don’t always have that support network. It’s a really important basis for feeling connected and having a sense of belonging and groundedness in the world.
And another point to pull out of that is if everyone’s seen the little triangle of Maslow’s hierarchy of needs, right. And on that base level is sex that’s in there. And yet for women, it’s been ignored, you know, from a research perspective, from even not that we’re looking for big pharma, you know, but even big pharma and all the pharmacological intervention and stuff, it’s all focused on male pleasure.
But it almost becomes another guilt and shame point. Like, oh, why would I ever ask about, you know, my pleasure being met because everything is so focused on. Well, let’s just say not that.
Nancy Boyd: Yeah, absolutely.
Dr. Ginger Garner: And then that is a basic, you know, part of that triangle of our hierarchy of needs. And historically, it’s been a shunned taboo conversation that you would have been looked at like, how could you possibly, you know, focus on that as a need? Almost to the point of, well, you’re just here for, you know, giving birth. Other than that, we don’t have much use for you when you see how women have been treated historically.
But I think that’s just one other point that I wanted to make about that, because it’s a conversation that you need to have. Like pleasure is part of that. Don’t feel guilty about that. Don’t feel shame because of that. Certainly, males are not feeling ashamed of having that conversation because they have plenty of drugs and surgery surrounding it. But we just don’t. And it’s time for a change. It’s time for another paradigm shift.
34:31 Nancy Boyd: Agreed. And it’s so hard to feel pleasure when you’re scared that you’re going to be hurt. You’re scared that you’re going to feel pain. It’s so hard to feel pleasure when you’re scared of pain. And I think that, I hope that we can help some people find that. I’m like, I hope our film helps more women have orgasms. But like I do.
[Yes!]35:02 Dr. Ginger Garner: Yes, there’s so many endocrine biochemical, you know, magic elixir that comes from that. We could get all nerdy and talk about the research all day long. But, you know, the bottom line is women deserve to have orgasms, too.
35:19 Bonnie Gross: Yes, I think also realizing like PIV [penis-in-vagina] sex isn’t like everything, too. You know, I think, you know, obviously, the sex education is little to none for most people here. And like you said, you feel so ahamed about it. Like, and all you know is that, you know, PIV, that’s it. That’s all I knew about. And yeah, it wasn’t until later, way later in life that I learned about other stuff you could be doing. That’s crazy!
35:49 Dr. Ginger Garner: And I think that’s a really, really important point to make. It’s, you know, from a scientific perspective, I’m very careful to when I’m documenting to document, you know, because people just assume sex. Oh, it’s penetrative. No, no, it isn’t. You know, so I come up from kind of the nerdy perspective. I don’t want to assume that that’s what someone means by sex.
And to make sure that when I’m documenting, you know, are they meeting their goals? Are they getting back to where they want to be? You know, that that distinction has to be made because that’s not necessary for someone to have, you know, to get the pleasure that they that they want. Yeah. Thanks for bringing that up, because that would have been that would have been sad to miss that point. That’s important.
Yeah. So I feel like at this point, we’ve talked, we’ve kind of danced around so many important topics that kind of hit on this one question that I have. And this is such an easy question, but I think we all need to hear the answer to it. And repetition is where we learn. So I feel like again and again, people need to hear, you know, the point of the film is to increase awareness, is to increase women having orgasms, is to increase awareness of these issues and get people to, you know, towards the practitioners they need to seek out in pelvic health, which is also pelvic occupational therapy. And there’s pelvic physical therapy. So there’s multiple. And then there’s sexual health counselors.
And there’s multiple, you know, people that are part of this team to resolve these issues and get people towards living their full quality of life. But the question is this, what would be the easiest change that you would like to see, like in the ideal world? You know, what would be the ideal change that you would like to see to improve this situation? And the situation is where women aren’t getting access to the care they need for whether it’s vulvodynia, vaginismus, vestibulitis, whatever that is. What would you like to see change that would improve everyone’s experience moving forward?
38:08 Nancy Boyd: I would like women to feel empowered to talk about their sexuality and their body to their doctors, their partners, their friends even. I think that we need to remove the shame. That is what my goal would be. I would love for this movie to peel away another layer of the shame that women feel.
38:39 Bonnie Gross: I fully agree. I think, you know, the way I can break my arm and tell everybody about it and go to a doctor and they’re like, clearly it’s a broken arm. I want that to be the experience that women have when they go on with any kind of these issues, whether it be vulvodynia, vaginismus, they could go talk to their friends, they could talk to their parents, they could go talk to a doctor about it and not and again, remove that shame. And it’s that simple.
39:04 Dr. Ginger Garner Yeah, what you guys both said together is such a mic drop. It’s huge to just say that’s it. That is it. We need to increase awareness of it. We need to talk about it as if, yep, I slammed my finger in my car door. Wow, that really hurt.
You know, you know, it might be something along the lines of, well, I’m having this pain and it feels like I slammed my labia in the car door or whatever that is.
[Yes.]For it to be just that casual and that easy to say it. And I think, you know, from my perspective, I am a boy mom of three and I have two in high school and one in middle school. And we were talking a little bit about anatomy and it was reproductive anatomy, but it was in relationship to the dog. And so I’ll tell this short little story and then I’ll get to my answer for this little question. We have a lot of chalk and a chocolate labrador. That’s what we did have. But we have a black labrador now. She’s a rescue. Her name is Scout Finch and you know, sweet. We rescued her. She was wandering around Charleston at about half her body weight with a bunch of disease processes going on.
But she has been like most homeless dogs that are found and sheltered. She’s been fixed. So I was telling James about that and I was like, well, have you learned about, you know, any of this anatomy, you know, in school? And I was already talking about our anatomy, right? I had moved on to human anatomy. He’s like, you know, we’ve not learned anything about dogs yet. And I’m sure we will start talking about it this year. I was like, he’s not quite ready for the talk yet.
So, that was a cute moment where it kind of indicated to me, because as as as a pelvic PT, I’m always looking for a reason like, oh, is it time to have a talk yet? Or should we weave some, you know, anatomy into this? This is no big deal. Let’s talk about it. Let’s lay it out. So that was a moment for me as a mom. But I think that speaks to what my answer is, is that what I think what I wish that we could, if I could snap my fingers and change, is that: people would graduate from high school, that the kids would graduate from high school and they would understand and have a basic working knowledge of how their body works.
41:31 Nancy Boyd Mm hmm. Please. That sounds great.
41:37 Bonnie Gross: We get that right now, actually. Are we offering courses?
41:39 Dr. Ginger Garner: Yeah. And there are so many people that could do that. That would be really good at doing that in schools because kids graduate and they don’t even know how to prevent type two diabetes, much less sexual dysfunction, right? Much less how things work or if it’s not working.
Female athletes like if I saw that I was reading new statistics the other day, nearly half of female athletes leak. And they think it’s OK. Is anybody talking about this? You know, for Crossfitters and cross-country runners and that kind of thing. So there’s just I feel like there’s a crisis where we know less and less about our bodies instead of more. And I wish that could change.
Yeah. All right. So rapid fire, some rapid fire questions to shore up.
What book are you reading right now?
42:32 Nancy Boyd: Who I’m actually I’m reading Nancy Drew because I like to just turn my brain off and have a good time when I’m done with things. So I’ve been reading some Nancy Drew, which has been very fun. It is just delightful.
42:48 Dr. Ginger Garner: I grew up reading that. I need to drag that back out again. Of course, now I’m just brought up on my Kindle, you know. Oh, my God. Nancy’s reading Nancy.
43:01 Bonnie Gross: I just finished with my book club, Wifey by Judy Blume. It was very interesting, very like opposite what we’re talking about. But I guess that’s what was interesting about reading it.
43:17 Dr. Ginger Garner: Yeah. Oh, my gosh. All right. Let’s see. Oh, favorite thing. What’s your favorite thing to do that is a fail safe chill pill?
43:29 Bonnie Gross: I am a huge nerd when it comes to like Survivor. I’ve tried out like three times and I just I love the show so much. I’ve watched every season since 2000. And like if I need like a chill, like very chill pill and like light a candle, waited blanket, clean sheets. And we’re going to rewatch one of my favorite seasons of Survivor just straight through, no commercials.
43:58 Nancy Boyd: I love it. I love it. Um, I make a casserole because I’m from the Midwest.
44:06Dr. Ginger Garner: We do the same thing in the South.
44:07 Nancy Boyd: Oh, good. Perfect. Then we’ll be good at parties. In a crisis, you make a casserole. It feels like my everything is fine then.
44:17 Dr. Ginger Garner: I’m feeling that already. Yeah, I’m totally feeling it. All right. One more. I’m loving these answers. Um, this might be a little bit harder because you guys have such eclectic interests. But what’s a favorite thing to do when you’re not fighting for the cause?
44:36 Nancy Boyd: Oh, I really love roller skating.
[Oh, wow.]Yeah, it’s really fun. So not good at that. You don’t have to be just, you know, hold onto the wall and enjoy.
44:50 Dr. Ginger Garner: I cannot put one foot over the other. It all goes downhill really quickly. When you go into the curve, you know, and I’m sure you look really cool going into the curve. I’m that awkward person. Yeah. Bonnie, what about you?
45:06 Bonnie Gross: I would say if I’m not working, I’m usually traveling. I love exploring new places. That’s my favorite thing to ever do. No matter if it’s like two hours away or a different country.
[Yeah. What’s the last cool place you visited?]So actually this past weekend I was in Mount Rainier National Park in Washington and I hiked around there for a few days. And then before that, I was in South Africa and did a safari and went shark cage diving and it was amazing.
45:41 Dr. Ginger Garner: Wow, you did that. I saw that I was in South Africa. That was like the list of options. And I was like, who would do that? Now I know.
45:50 Nancy Boyd: Bonnie, Bonnie would do that.
45:55 Bonnie Gross: I would do that. Yeah. Yeah. I was like, I just am not going to tell anyone until after I do it.
46:00 Dr. Ginger Garner Yeah, we would worry about you. I’m glad you’re out on the other side. And did you see any sharks?
46:06 Bonnie Gross: We did. We had one brush up and hit the cage, which was really, really cool. I know. I know. Yeah, like I said, I’m either laying down, watching Survivor or trying to find something cool and thrilling to do.
46:23 Dr. Ginger Garner: Yeah. Doing something where you might not survive. Yeah.
46:28 Nancy Boyd: Bonnie is the survivor.
46:32 Dr. Ginger Garner: I am. Well, I’m inspired. I’m inspired in all cases here. Bonnie and Nancy, I want to thank you for spending this time with me today, for talking with me, for being a profound inspiration.
You guys don’t know it yet, but you’re about to be inspired by this film. And I cannot wait to see it and what I know about it already. I know it’s going to be incredible. So I want to thank you for all your hard work and your dedication for doing it. And yeah, and for taking the time to talk to me. Thank you.
47:08 Nancy Boyd: Of course. Thank you so much. This has been great. I’m also glad that we all were pink today. We really got the memo.
47:14 Dr. Ginger Garner: We’ve got the shades. I was pulling Barbie pink out. I love it, which was never a part of my wardrobe until the summer before the movie came out. I had no idea it was even coming out. And I thought, why am I averse to pink?
Probably because of all this cultural conditioning, you know, where you’re not you’re already not taken seriously. So if you wear pink, you’re just asking for it then. Yeah, yeah. Here we are. Yeah, here we are. Here’s pink and being taken seriously.
So thank you guys again. And I just I can’t wait to see it. I know we could just keep talking about it, but can’t wait to see it.
Thank you.
Nancy Boyd/Bonnie Gross: Thank you so much.
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