Hello everyone and welcome back. We are here with Heather Edwards for a part two. So that is your clue. Yeah, welcome. my gosh, it was such a good conversation. I just want to thank you for coming back for a part two. And for those of you who are like, wait, where’s the part one? Well, that’s your clue. That’s your cue. Go back earlier in the season to catch part one where you will learn all about Heather and her amazingness.

Heather Edwards (00:07)

So.

Yeah, I’m so excited to continue this conversation.

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (00:28)

But right now we’re just gonna jump straight into the good stuff. right, welcome back.

Heather Edwards (00:35)

Thank you. Thank you. Glad to be here as always.

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (00:38)

Yeah, good stuff. All right, so let’s talk about it. ⁓ We kind of left off about with, know, what if you need a pelvic floor referral? What if you, what does it look like when someone has the additional sexual health counseling background? How do we move kind of away from shame and being able to be open and talk about it with pelvic floor PT or OT? But then we stopped short and that’s why we needed a part two because we didn’t really talk about feeling safe.

seen and included. And I know that that’s part of your thing. You’re known for creating an inclusive space for LGBTQIA plus folks, the kink communities, complex medical histories. Talk about how you do that, first of all. And then I wanna talk about like how we know a person or how a person would know that they feel safe in a space where they’re in a clinic. So that’s part two, but part one is,

Talk a little bit about how you’ve worked to make that an inclusive space and how it looks for you.

Heather Edwards (01:41)

Yeah. So the, ⁓ the biggest piece of this, I think is sometimes surprising because it really has nothing to do with the space you’re creating with someone else. It has all to do with the space you create for yourself. ⁓ and so, you know, I was just talking about this with our sex counseling cohort in an office hour right before this, as we were discussing like the, so often it’s challenging to talk about like taboo or challenging or, know,

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (01:54)

Hmm.

Heather Edwards (02:09)

like against the cultural norm or any of these topics, you know, and especially in a clinic, it’s hard. But for clinicians, for providers, it becomes really hard if you haven’t asked yourself these questions already, and if you don’t feel comfortable with your own sense of who you are, right? So the biggest thing for providers to be able to create a safe space is for them to have already kind of done their own work around

Exploring the the concepts around like like understanding a bigger scope of sexuality Asking themselves things like like what is sex for to you know for me like what? What are my motivating factors? How do I work? What are the power structures that I engage in you know when it comes to? partners, what are the the The things that really like make me feel like good and alive you know and do I bring that into? My sexual health world or you know into my my sexual relationships

Because so many of those things are the things that we’re really wanting our clients to be able to access, right? Is that, you know, higher quality of life, right? We want that deeper sense of our erotic self. And, you know, when I say erotic, I don’t mean like pornographic or just like sexual. you know, it’s not that version of it. It’s that like really feeling that deep sense of who you are and what lights you up.

right from the most delicious cara cara orange that you might have just eaten that just made you think that all is right with the world despite often evidence the contrary or whatever it might be but it’s being able to kind of like find that for yourself and then being able to bring that into all of their experiences of life and in particular into your sexual experiences because our sex like there’s so much that’s around that that tells us that

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (03:33)

Yeah.

Haha.

Heather Edwards (04:01)

sex isn’t for us or sex isn’t pleasurable or sex isn’t this or we shouldn’t do this or this is dirty or this is, you we’ve got so many gatekeepers around our sexual selves that sometimes it’s hard to actually relax and enjoy it. And so for a provider to be able to create a space for someone else to do that, they need to be able to know how to do that for themselves because otherwise it’s really hard to understand that that space even exists, right? And then that space becomes

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (04:25)

Yeah.

Heather Edwards (04:28)

very like medicalized, right? And focused on the what hurt like, you know, like as if it’s your knee or something, right? Where all of these things still apply to your knee, you know, for being honest about it. But it’s but it’s a deeper sense of challenge when it comes to sexuality things. So, ⁓ yeah, so like, that is kind of like ideally what you’re looking for. But like, that’s not exactly someone’s gonna it’s what someone’s gonna put on their website, right? Here’s all the self work I’ve done around sexuality.

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (04:34)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

I know, I know, know. I can we elaborate? I don’t know how we would elaborate it, because you listed the questions that they should be asking themselves. But what does the actual process look like? How would a patient recognize that that process has happened? And maybe you’re a clinician and you’re listening, or you’re a patient, you’re like, well, I want to do this, I want to go through this process. What does that look like?

Heather Edwards (05:01)

Yeah.

Right, ⁓ it can look like lots of things. It can look like therapy. It can look like a really great friend circle. It can look like some really fantastic books. There’s so many incredible books. Like Emily Nagoski and Esther Perel are always, those are the two that absolutely speak to me in all the ways and I will read every word of every book that they read. so, finding the people who speak to you and really,

like, like, ⁓ yes, like this, this is good. This is where I want to go. And then I’m going to actually practice this in my life. ⁓ But a lot of times you need support or you need like, you know, accountability buddy you’re something like that to kind of like help you go through and do the work. Definitely. I recommend therapy like therapy to like help figure out what are your holdbacks and what are the things that are keeping you from accessing, you know, yourself and your, your sex life in the ways that you want.

Yeah, there’s, I have, sometimes like, erotica can be helpful or watching different movies that can help you, ⁓ kind of access different parts. don’t know, Ginger, have you watched Heated Rivalry? Are you in the Heated Rivalry fan club right now? So it’s all the rage and I highly recommend it to everyone, but it’s a, it’s a, it’s a six.

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (06:34)

No, I’m not.

Heather Edwards (06:44)

six part series about a like gay hockey players. Okay. But the thing about the series that like, like people are watching and rewatching and rewatching this and it’s there’s so much good, like erotic scripting stuff in there. And so many of the experiences are really reparative because they take like all of these things that people are really afraid of the worst case scenario happening. And then they like, and then it doesn’t and it’s happy and it’s good and it’s fine. And it makes your heart feel like,

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (07:10)

Hmm.

Heather Edwards (07:14)

Okay, right. Yeah, so kind of like finding those different things, like if something’s like really fascinating you or like lighting you up around it, or there’s a conversation or a show or a piece of a movie or a dialogue from a book that you just can’t get out of your head or something to like dive into that a little bit more and see what it is. ⁓ And then some of the things like I can give you there I have a what is sex for handout that we could probably attach and it’s

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (07:15)

stuff we need.

Okay.

Heather Edwards (07:42)

It’s one of these things that it’s just kind of helpful to understand. Like so often, like if someone thinks that like if you ever, you know, have you ever wondered like, why is it that I have sex? Right? This is not a question we ask ourselves. Right. But when you do, the answers can be fascinating. So this is just kind of like a checklist of being able to consider what those reasons are. And some of them might be like, you know, for connection with your partner, but some of them also might be like,

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (07:54)

⁓ Yes.

Heather Edwards (08:11)

to keep my partner from being so damn grumpy, right? Right? It’s to get away from consequences or it’s because I think I should, like this is my job or if I don’t, then my partner will cheat on me or, you know, like, or like there’s all sorts of different versions of it. Like, and there’s also all the good stuff. Like I want to feel like transcending, transcendent. want to like access this great thing that I can’t access anywhere else. But sometimes when we can understand those things about ourselves,

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (08:15)

Yeah.

Mm. Mm. Mm-hmm.

Heather Edwards (08:40)

⁓ that can also kind of really help us sort out like where the sticky pieces are and where the, the, points of pleasure really are, if that makes sense. I mean, this is, this is a hard question to answer because it’s going to be a different pathway for like every single person who experiences it. Right. But, asking yourself things like, you know, like using as a journaling prompt like, where did I learn about sex? You know, what does sex mean to me?

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (08:51)

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Heather Edwards (09:10)

Like what do I think sex should be? Right? What is sex for me now? You know, what’s my best case scenario sexual experience, right? You know, so just kind of like diving into some of that can be really ⁓ helpful. Like, you know, and that’s for absolutely anyone like that would would recommend that for providers, but also for for patients. But also I want to put out there with the caveat.

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (09:12)

Yeah.

Heather Edwards (09:35)

those things I just rattled off those questions like they’re no big deal. Each one of those could like, you know, put you in a spiral of like, ⁓ my gosh, you know, and it could be really hard to answer that. And like, when you start thinking about where you learned about sex, if some of those places are kind of dark and scary and then you’re like, ⁓ wow, there’s some stuff in there that.

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (09:53)

Mm.

Heather Edwards (09:58)

That’s why this is really hard for me. And I’ll give you a really funny example. I mean, it’s not funny, but ⁓ it’s a beer related example. Okay, so I live in Asheville, North Carolina. Asheville, North Carolina is known for breweries, right? So all sorts of beer, really delicious beer. I cannot stand pilsners or lagers, right? Like on a level that’s like not…

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (10:01)

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Heather Edwards (10:24)

Like any other beer I can like try out and I just know I kind of have to stay away from those. And I had a friend, this was just last week actually, and he was like, he’s like, this is a really good one. Like this brewery is amazing. This is a fantastic lager. I’m like, all right, let me try it. Maybe it will change my mind. I took like barely a sip. It was like when the smell hit me, like I had, it was like a disgust response to it, right? And it was just like.

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (10:50)

Mm. Mm-hmm.

Heather Edwards (10:53)

What was that? And I thought about it a little bit more about the next year over the next couple of days. And he kind of he’s like, yeah, he’s like, that was a strong reaction you had to that. And I said, I’m like, it’s because it smells like the guys that tried to kiss me in the bar at college. Like it smells like it’s like it has undertones of light sexual assault. Right. Like, and so it’s like things like that that like come up when you’re like, like that way of being touched or that way of.

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (11:12)

⁓ yeah, yeah.

Thank you.

Heather Edwards (11:20)

having

someone initiate with me or something like that actually is kind of repulsive to me. But if we haven’t asked ourselves those questions and dove into them, we’ll try to power through and then wonder what’s wrong with us when we don’t get turned on. Right? Yeah.

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (11:32)

Yeah, that’s heavy. That’s a lot

to unpack. And it’s a lot to then process because then you got to figure out how you want to move through that after. Yeah. No.

Heather Edwards (11:40)

Mm-hmm.

Right. So these are not like questions that I throw out. And

I don’t actually mean for anyone to take those questions and just start journaling about them. If any of them intrigue you and you want to start, you know, kind of like asking yourself those and working on it, like by all means go for it, but know that you might need some support around it. ⁓ Because, you know, we have a culture where a whole lot of things are hidden here and we cover it up and we hide it. But often with

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (12:01)

Mm-hmm.

Heather Edwards (12:12)

is sexuality counseling education. ⁓ And I can especially speak for the sexuality counseling program that I teach with Dr. Uchenna Osai. This is what we have our participants do, right? We have them like dive in and really, you know, kind of our rules. You don’t give anyone an assignment before until you’ve done it for yourself so that you actually understand the emotional experience of asking yourself that question or having that conversation with a partner, right?

I can’t speak for everyone who is working as a sexuality counselor or, you know, all of the different programs people have gone through. But if someone like on their website or, ⁓ you know, it talks about the programs they’ve gone through and they’ve done specific sexuality counseling training, you know, whether it’s like with a national certification or if they’ve done like a big program or something like that, likely it’s going to be on their resume, likely it’s going to be on their website somewhere. And that helps.

you know that they have probably asked themselves those questions because there’s a lot of pelvic like pelvic therapists out there that it’s like we don’t we get like the training around like just like medical sexuality right and then we jump into it but we don’t have like the psychosocial aspects of it and so like that can kind of sometimes be hard when it’s like they’re all ready to hear about the problems you’re having with pain or numbness or this or that but

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (13:24)

Mm-hmm.

Heather Edwards (13:37)

the context around like your relationship structure or, you know, the, the, the problem is with some sort of, you know, like a, like a more, like a kinkier or more intense activity that you want to be able to get back to that. You don’t know if you want to say out loud because you might be judged. Like those things are generally, ⁓ you want to have someone who’s had a little bit more training in like an actual sex counseling program, ⁓ to increase the odds that they’ve.

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (14:04)

Mm-hmm.

Heather Edwards (14:07)

had these conversations and they’ve been exposed to this stuff before you come and sit down with them in their office.

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (14:12)

Yeah, it is a hard, and the suggestion of looking for that additional training is really key because otherwise, how can you really know at all what they’re prepared to discuss and how welcoming the environment would be? ⁓ Especially when a patient’s looking for a clinic, a space, a therapist, ⁓ where their whole identity is welcome and not just their anatomy.

Heather Edwards (14:30)

Right.

Right.

Exactly. And it’s, tricky for sure. and you know, and sometimes people are like, I’m LGBT affirming and stuff like that, but it doesn’t necessarily mean that they’ve had any training of it. just means that they’re not going to be a jerk to you. Right. Or that they don’t think that they’re going to be a jerk to you. Right. Right. So, yeah. So that’s definitely like, those are also good things to see, but like seeing that they’ve had actual training around sexuality can be really helpful.

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (14:55)

Yeah. They don’t think that that’s probably the more accurate way to state it. Yeah.

Heather Edwards (15:11)

And then during your first visit, like just asking them about some of their things. And you can ask about, know, have you had much like training or, you know, conversations or done any coursework around like kink or relationship structures or, you know, or like, ⁓ like, like power dynamics or like anti-racism or like any of those things that you feel like are really going to be important in your care, like just ask them if they have, you know, done training in that. Right.

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (15:40)

Mm-hmm.

Heather Edwards (15:41)

And then hopefully they’ll have a really good like, ⁓ yes, I’ve done this or I’ve been reading this or I’ve been listening to this and they’re gonna and they’re not gonna just look at you like, what are you talking about? Right? Cause that what are you talking about look is like, ⁓ not safe to discuss this.

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (15:52)

Yeah.

That’s a good ⁓ yellow flag, actually. And I was going to ask because the red flags are easy to see. Someone doesn’t have any training or they come across as obviously not being inclusive. But what would you say some of the yellow flags are? We’ve talked about the green flags, but what would the yellow flags be that maybe a provider isn’t equipped? Maybe they had training, we don’t know. But what would be some subtle things to look

Heather Edwards (16:26)

If like I said, those yellow flags would be if you’re, the way that they ask their questions make you feel like you have to make a decision between either coming out or staying closeted at the risk of being judged. Like if you’re feeling like that, those are definitely those yellow flag things because some of that stuff is kind of like baked in, right? You know, like

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (16:48)

Yeah, yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Heather Edwards (16:53)

some of the things are just like, you know how a sex working for you, blah, blah, you know, and then it’s like, okay, well, you know, well with your husband, right, or with your wife, you know, we’re like making those assumptions where that hasn’t actually been a thing and that’s maybe not a correct thing because of, because then you put someone like, you know, then as a patient, you’re in that position of like, are they not cool with the option of me being gay? Are they not cool with the option of me having multiple partners? You know, and so then you

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (17:07)

Yeah.

Heather Edwards (17:20)

have to do kind of a quick little trust measurement and be like, okay, am I going to try to get the most authentic version of care I can by telling them the truth for me? Or am I just going to kind of sit on some of this stuff because I don’t want my care to be affected negatively if they have judgments about the way I live my life? Yeah. And sometimes you’re probably just fine to like, just say the thing, but like, it’s a calculation.

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (17:41)

Yeah.

Mm-hmm. Yeah, especially with if people want to talk about like, you know, a particular like kink practice they want to get back into. Do you have any suggestions for how people would navigate that conversation if they’re trying to go in and talk to a healthcare provider about it?

Heather Edwards (17:50)

You

Yeah. So if we’re talking about ⁓ a kink practice that maybe let’s say they’re in a small town and they don’t have very many options about who they go to, right? Yeah. And so here’s the pelvic PT in town. You know, they have a pretty good rapport with this person. And ⁓ let’s say for an example, a thing that they really enjoying doing is fisting, right? Like say vaginal fisting.

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (18:19)

That’s practical.

Heather Edwards (18:35)

which is something that makes a lot of people go like, right, like big response to. So if that’s a thing to where it’s like, all of a sudden that’s been something that you’ve been having a hard time like receiving again, right? And you want to be able to get back to it. Like you need to be able to talk to your provider about like a larger than our, like we’re not talking about like biggest dilator size, right? Like this is.

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (18:40)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Heather Edwards (19:02)

a change in your status that is a little more varsity level, right? So what I would suggest would be to have a way of ⁓ like kind of letting them know, giving them a heads up of like, okay, so there’s a thing that I enjoy doing that is a little out of the norm and it might not be something that is in your wheelhouse.

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (19:06)

Mm-hmm.

Heather Edwards (19:26)

However, I can explain to you what it entails if you’re open to hearing about that so that you can help me problem solve it. Because I think a lot of times the wall that patients get is their therapist or their medical provider feeling incompetent, right? By like, ⁓ they’re asking me about something I have no idea. So am I gonna fake it or am I gonna try to be like, ⁓ like no or.

throw some judgment out to let them know that like, no, this is not okay. We don’t talk about this, but really it’s just because I have no idea how to talk about it. Right. So if it can be prefaced a little bit with like a, Hey, I know this is kind of like an out of the ordinary thing, but if like, can help explain this to you, like, I’m not expecting you to know about this particular thing. You know, I would like to be able to explain it to you and know that like, I’m, this is something that I enjoy.

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (20:00)

Yeah, yeah,

Heather Edwards (20:21)

that it rouses me like, so that you’re of like crossing off all of the like, this is not an abusive situation, right? Because that’s a lot of times with what our head goes to when we hear like, you know, these more extreme sex acts, it’s like, oh my gosh, is this an abusive situation? Is this causing damage? this in your, and so your medical provider as someone who is trying to like reduce harm to your body is gonna like take that side first, right?

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (20:27)

Hmm.

Heather Edwards (20:46)

And so we want to make sure that we kind of like can like know like this is something and this is always like this has been something that has worked really well for me in the past. It’s always been great, but here’s what this thing is and here’s where I’m having the problems. So like as many ways as you can kind of like already have it digested down to like the specific pieces of it is going to be really helpful for your practitioner to be able to like help you problem solve the part of it that’s problematic.

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (21:15)

Yeah, you know, that’s such good advice for not just talking about a particular kink practice, but just getting your medical history out to someone and having that be the most, you know, lean, you know, ⁓ description as possible, almost bullet pointed, you know, if you will, because there’s also can be a feeling of little time and if you’re used to not being attended to.

Heather Edwards (21:36)

Right.

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (21:43)

in appointments and being dismissed, this is like, feels like an extremely high stakes situation to be bringing your concerns into a provider. Yeah.

Heather Edwards (21:52)

Yeah.

And some of the ways that I like to train my providers to listen, like when I’m teaching providers how to do this, is like having them listen to people and understand that, like, what are the physical pieces of this that are going on? What are the erotic pieces? But when I say erotic, I mean like the sense of self. Like, what are the words that you’re hearing that are like…

I just don’t feel like myself anymore. I used to be able to enjoy all these things and now I just can’t and everything’s feel more dull or these things where we just know like where our life juice is draining out of us, right? And then also what are the relational aspects and components of it? So those are the pieces that ⁓ are all usually relevant to any of the sexual dysfunction and distress that we’re trying to assess.

So for any of you listening, if you can think about like the things that you’re stressed about, if like you’re having painful sex, right? Go ahead and kind of think about those things like, okay, so what are like the physical aspects? Like when does it hurt? Why these are the questions you’re gonna get asked, right? Like break it down like you’re in a forensics lab a little bit. Like, so think through like, it’s really not at the beginning, right? It happens after a while and it’s only with this sort of act.

Right? So as much as you can like already have broken down and then like the, does it make you feel when you can’t do this? Right? Like, is this just like an annoyance or is it just like, it’s just painful. Like everything else, I still feel sexy as hell, but like, I just want this thing to work. Right. ⁓ or is it like, ⁓ I just feel like I can’t, like, I’m just not myself. Like I can’t access myself. I don’t feel sexy. I feel like things are broken. You know, like it is that a big component of it because that’s really relevant.

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (23:12)

Mm-hmm.

Heather Edwards (23:41)

And then how is this affecting your relationship or how is your relationship supporting or making this harder? So.

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (23:48)

Yeah,

you just hit on something that’s so important and I was actually going to ask about it. So let’s just like go into it next. And it was really centered around pleasure, pain and healing. And of course we’re talking about sexual health, but in the context of that is the pelvis and pelvic health and the pelvic floor connection. And so many people come into pelvic floor therapy, pelvic health, believing pain is their fault, you know, or

Heather Edwards (23:56)

Right.

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (24:17)

or proof that like they’re broken or something like that. How do you help patients reframe pain or arousal changes, orgasm challenges as medical and not like moral, know? Yes, exactly. Yeah.

Heather Edwards (24:33)

Moral failings, right? Hurt is right.

Yeah. Cause all of that happens. like for any of the providers that might be listening to this, like you need to know if that’s part of what is going on. Right? Like you need to know if this is actually landing as a moral failing for someone, you know, because that’s really going to adjust the way that you talk to them and adjust the way that you ⁓ manage that. And, know, for any of your patients, like if it does feel like a moral failing, if you do feel broken or like this is a

punishment for something bad that you have done, know, which often comes with sexuality stuff, right? Like I had an affair and now I can’t get an erection, right? you know, like there are biological and it’s like psychosocial reasons why all of those things happen. And it’s not just like a punishment, you know, so understanding that that’s not what’s going on. Okay.

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (25:12)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Heather Edwards (25:27)

might be the way that you’re processing what’s happened or it might be your feelings around it. talking to your provider about that, can help you figure out where to go to help manage those aspects of it, because there might be a piece of it to where you might need to talk to a therapist about some shame around something that happened. You know, we’re kind of unpacking some stuff that is holding you back or getting out of, if you’re having like perseverating thoughts around something, every time you get aroused and then you get this, this thing, right? Like that,

might be something that you need professional help to unpack, right?

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (26:00)

Yeah,

yeah, because, you know, pelvic therapy, pelvic PT, pelvic OT can carry us a certain distance. And then obviously there’s, you know, sexual counseling beyond that and therapy. ⁓ But pelvic health and therapy specifically attempts to, tries to support sexual liberation, confidence, know, embodied pleasure and all those things. But

Then you come up against, and this is something else you just mentioned. So just want to draw this little piece out, which is about ⁓ shame, dismantling shame. So we can throw that pelvic P-T-O-T ball as far as we can get it. And then there’s, okay, you’ve got a bigger issue on dismantling shame and reclaiming sexual autonomy. And so you often talk about how shame reinforces that silence and keeps people from seeking help.

And I’m wondering, like, is there a practical exercise, you know, listeners can do, like, now, today, to start detaching from those shame-based sexual beliefs?

Heather Edwards (27:08)

Yeah, I mean, wouldn’t it be cool if you could just detach from your right, like that line you just said, like, yeah, let’s do that today.

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (27:11)

I know, I know. It’s so like, yeah, just mired up.

How do you start the conversation? Because you feel that, you know when people are bringing that stuff in and anytime people are talking about sexual health, I mean, it’s obviously gonna come up. They think that they’re wrong, they’re broken, moral failing, lots of shame. And there goes the snowball, right? And it’s just getting bigger and bigger. Now what do we do?

Heather Edwards (27:23)

Yeah.

So accessing that or being able to acknowledge that that is what you’re feeling. Naming like, what is this that I like? Why am I afraid to talk to my pelvic therapist about this thing that’s happening? Or why am I only telling them part of the story and more of the story? And so if you can kind of like, you’re like, because I don’t want to dive into, I don’t want to talk about it. And so it’s like, it?

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (27:56)

Yeah.

Heather Edwards (28:05)

that I maybe need to dive into that with someone else, right? Or I need to start journaling about that or like kind of seeing like what’s in that? Like, why is this such a block for me? ⁓ Is it shame? Because you can absolutely talk to your therapist or your pelvic therapist, ⁓ your pelvic health provider and say like, hey, I have a lot of shame around this, right? Like that is shining the light on it.

anything you can do to shine the light on the shame and the hard stuff is going to be like the first step to help you move out of it. So you can name those things with your provider. And chances are your provider has a whole lot of things they also feel shame about. This is a universal human experience. As providers, ⁓ as medical providers and sex counselors, we don’t necessarily dive into

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (28:52)

Yeah.

Heather Edwards (29:03)

You know, like helping people through like their deeper therapeutic things when it comes to, you know, shame and betrayal and stuff like that. But what we can do is normalize and educate people on the different aspects. I feel like if, if someone is feeling shame because they’re only able to orgasm with clitoral stimulation and they can’t ever orgasm with vaginal stimulation, ⁓ pelvic PTs, we can absolutely help to discuss that shame. Right.

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (29:31)

Yeah.

Heather Edwards (29:33)

And so

some of those pieces, like some basic like physiological education and education about how orgasm and arousal and desire and all of that work are pretty great. Emily Nagoski has this really beautiful ⁓ metaphor that she uses around ⁓ a garden. And it’s like, we all have our garden, right? And like,

Our garden has been growing since we were born and we didn’t have any say about what was planted in that garden. But now our garden is ours, right? And this garden is our, our sexuality, our sexual selves, like our sense of who we are. And there’s a lot of weeds growing in there. And like, it’s not, we’re not responsible for how they got there, but now we do need to tend to them, right? And figure out what we want to plant instead.

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (30:15)

Yeah. ⁓

Yeah.

That’s good. Yeah.

Heather Edwards (30:25)

Right? So

just because your garden might be overgrown with stuff that you don’t want in there, that doesn’t mean your garden is lost. Right? It just means we need to like, ⁓ here’s this and here’s how we need to manage this. And here’s what we can do instead to plant something that’s going to not let that other stuff grow in place. Right.

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (30:34)

Yeah.

Yeah.

gosh, were you gonna say one more thing?

Heather Edwards (30:48)

I think I was going to talk a little bit about it, like one other aspect with this whole, the, the feeling broken, right. Or feeling like something is like, well, especially the brokenness. So often in like our Western culture, we have like one path to successful sex, right? Like it’s this default thing and whatever it is for people, like when that path stops working, we feel broken.

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (30:55)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Heather Edwards (31:18)

Right? So if it involves a, you know, wet vagina and an erect penis and those things can do their thing together until everyone has an orgasm and that equals successful sex, there are so many ways for that sex to be broken. Right? And that doesn’t mean that like that that you’re broken. It means that you chose a tight wire or a tight rope.

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (31:19)

Yeah.

Yeah. ⁓

Heather Edwards (31:43)

as your version of sexuality and sometimes

you can’t keep balancing on that. Yeah.

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (31:48)

That’s a good way to put it. was,

that’s about, was about to say something, ask a question related to that. So this is a perfect segue. I was gonna ask how people can give themselves permission to define sex outside that kind of heteronormative standard or expectation, that tight rope kind of thing. Yeah.

Heather Edwards (32:05)

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

So, learning that there are just so many more things on the menu. ⁓ but like, instead of focusing on the goal of what is like what we think sex should be, right? Like it’s the baseball thing, right? There’s like first base, second base, third base home run, right? Which is an absolutely terrible metaphor for sex because you have

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (32:31)

Totally.

Heather Edwards (32:34)

You know, like, so you have a team that wins and a team that gave up a run, right? Like, who wants to give up a run? Like, it’s terrible. But yet, like, that’s still, kind of ingrained into this is how it works. And if we didn’t do that whole thing, then it didn’t count as sex. Right? So, and that’s that, like that, just to generalize that as like the heteronormative script for sexuality. But that doesn’t mean the only straight people do that.

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (32:42)

Yeah, it is.

Mm, mm-hmm.

Heather Edwards (33:02)

Right? Like that script is in there for all of us, regardless of orientation, right? That there are things that happen and this is how we have sex. You know, it is a lot easier for queer people to avoid this script because we like often a queer couple will have different anatomy or will feel differently about their own anatomy and how they want to use it. And so the…

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (33:08)

Yeah, true.

Heather Edwards (33:31)

nature of like just kind of coming up with like, well, let’s do these things because we like these things and these are the parts we have. And this is like, this is how we feel good together. ⁓ is, is a lot more natural when there’s not like, you know, like, like, you know, in the case of two women, right? If you don’t have to tend to a penis during sex, like if no one cares, if there’s an erect penis and how the penis is doing and you know, then it’s like, wow.

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (33:42)

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Heather Edwards (34:00)

There’s a whole lot of freedom in that, right? So you can kind of like, like take turns and like, you know, have a little more playfulness and, and sex. the thing is like those same concepts are really fantastic for straight couples too. You know, that like just not centering an entire sexual experience around eventually getting to penetration. then penetration has to happen until the one who is penetrating has an orgasm.

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (34:01)

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Heather Edwards (34:30)

Right. Because like there’s just, mean, it might not be good for anyone. Right. Like the person who is having an orgasm might prefer to have an orgasm in another way, but like, this is the way we’re supposed to do it. You know? And like, and also it might be such that like, for the person who is receiving penetration, it might feel just fine for like five minutes, right? Three minutes.

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (34:30)

Yeah, yeah.

in another way. Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Heather Edwards (34:56)

But then after that, you get like bored or irritated or you need more lubrication, but you don’t want to like bust the flow because then you put five more minutes on the clock, you know? Right? So, so just like recognizing that whenever we have like these points that feel annoying in sex that you can not do those. Like you can like not do the things you don’t like. Right?

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (35:08)

Yeah, yeah.

That’s worth stating and yeah.

Heather Edwards (35:25)

Yeah, even

like I’m now I’m like, how can I just talk about any sex acts here? Is that okay? Right. So like with the blowjob, for example, right? Often you don’t talk to many women who are super excited about giving blowjobs and it’s usually because of like orthopedic challenges, right? It’s like your jaw hurts. It takes too long. It’s like, there’s a lot of labor. There’s things that go into it. It’s really fun for a little while, but like,

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (35:32)

yes. Yeah.

Heather Edwards (35:53)

It gets old, you know, and then you have to like, do you have to do it until he’s there? And my gosh, am I doing it right? Did I, you know, there’s, there’s all sorts of pieces, but you can like, maybe just do the parts that you really enjoy and then change to something else and then come back to it and do the parts you really enjoy and then change to something else, you know, so that you’re not having to turn sex into non pleasurable labor, you know,

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (36:10)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Yes. Yeah.

Heather Edwards (36:22)

Because often

the things that we like when someone is doing a sex act on us is we want them to be really into it. So the thing that we can give our partners is to keep ourselves in a place to where we’re really into the things that we’re doing with them. Right? So that means they need to be pleasurable. Right? So, and sometimes that takes communication and conversations outside of the bedroom, you know, about like,

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (36:31)

Yeah.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Heather Edwards (36:52)

what feels good and what you would enjoy. ⁓ So often, when we talk to clients about what it is that they want from sexual connection, it’s usually, for sexual activity, it’s usually connection. It’s usually, well, this is how I let my partner know I love them. This is what, but then it’s like, okay, so this is how you let your partner know that you love them, but really what it is is a hamstring cramp and some neck pain and carpal tunnel flaring up.

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (37:05)

connection.

Yeah.

Heather Edwards (37:22)

Like, no, that is not what we want. nobody has time for that. So do the things that feel good. And that might be like looking outside of the box for stuff. Sensory play is, I think, the most overlooked, most fantastic piece of sex.

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (37:22)

⁓ that’s good. That is no, that is no. Nobody has time for that. No.

Yeah.

Yeah, I agree. I agree. Yeah.

Heather Edwards (37:45)

Yeah. And for anyone

who’s listening, who’s like sensory play, what the heck does that mean? Right.

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (37:48)

Yeah, yeah,

talk to the listeners about this for a second, but I think, gosh, that you’ve hit on something here that’s really important.

Heather Edwards (37:55)

Yeah, so like sensory play is just like taking turns, make like making each other feel really good in fun and playful ways. Right. So like it can and usually like using some sort of apparatuses and it can be anything like this. It can be it can be kinky if you want, but it can also be just like real sweet. Like you can use like cotton balls and maybe a pair like a silk scarf and

Maybe like, you know, a fork or something for something different, you know, maybe something that you’ve like ⁓ a spoon that you’ve had in cold water and a spoon that you’ve had in like warm water, right? So that you can kind of play with some temperature things, maybe a spray bottle where you like spritz someone and blow on it, but just kind of like, and you can even put them in a blindfold so they can’t see. And then you’re just gonna do all of these fun things to like,

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (38:27)

Mm-hmm.

See what’s coming.

Heather Edwards (38:53)

And create really fun and exciting experience for one another. And often what that does is it reminds you that you have skin. Now. And that you have a brain. That those things are deeply connected and it can be highly erotic and very arousing. To get yourself a kind of in this place to where it’s like your skin is just so alive and you’re just enjoying every piece.

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (39:01)

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, can teach you so much about, it’s almost like, ⁓ I don’t want to say it’s a gap filler, but it teaches you so much about also redefining, you know, what sex is, you know, that’s non-penetrative, et cetera. And I have a follow-up question to that, but there’s this huge like Grand Canyon worth of stuff that people are overlooking. And, you know, that’s where the sensory category can definitely come in.

Heather Edwards (39:50)

Yeah, and people can start to understand like, really like doing this to my partner, or I really like receiving this and just having no idea what they’re going to do next. Or I really like receiving this, but as long as I can have some control over how hard or where on my body, right? So you can start like in a much lower consequence environment, start figuring out like, ⁓ this really works for me.

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (39:56)

Mm-hmm.

Heather Edwards (40:17)

You know, I always thought I wanted to receive it. Really, I really like to do the thing. You know? Yeah, so you can…

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (40:17)

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah. That’s,

that is ⁓ important, you know, in terms of like roles, because you often get stuck in the same thing, you know, again and again. And that was kind of my follow-up question too was, I wanted to kind of segue into like real world stories, where people have like, they’ve arrived, and we were all arriving at any given moment, you know. ⁓

Heather Edwards (40:33)

Yeah.

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (40:49)

to get esoteric just a little bit. ⁓ But when they have, they truly feel like they’re somewhat like liberated, I guess might be the word. Can you share like examples of, know, cases obviously anonymous and stuff who didn’t know, you know, about non-penetrative sex that they counted or who discovered new pathways to pleasure? I mean, I’m sure you’ve got more than enough stories.

Heather Edwards (41:12)

Yeah. Yes,

I have a favorite one. So, yeah, was like, I’m like, oh wait, but there’s this other one that was really good. But I know, okay. So, okay, so first I’m gonna tell the story of a patient who wanted to be able to have sex that wasn’t painful with her husband. And…

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (41:17)

Okay.

You can tell two stories.

Heather Edwards (41:41)

The situation was that they did not have a great relationship. She acknowledged this. She was not particularly fond of her husband, but it was one of those situations to where he was much less grumpy if she had sex with him on a fairly regular basis, once a week, let’s say. Right. So she was coming. She’s like, look, I don’t need it to feel good. I just need it not to hurt so bad. Right. She didn’t care. like, so pleasure was nowhere on her map. Right.

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (42:05)

⁓ gosh, yeah.

Hmm.

Heather Edwards (42:11)

She had not, she’d never had an orgasm, like any of those pieces. So we just did a basic talk through about like anatomy and arousal and I introduced her to her clitoris, you know, and just kind of like talk to her about like pleasure and like what pleasurable sensations can feel like, because as we know, like for sex to feel better, you need to be aroused, right? And there wasn’t much that was happening for arousal for her within these sexual, these…

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (42:14)

Gosh. Yeah.

Heather Edwards (42:40)

sexual encounters. so, you know, so that was going to be on her to figure out how she could get herself aroused to go into these situations. So she needed to really understand her body and how to do it. So I suggested some self pleasure things for her just to start to understand those. And like I gave her a couple basic tips. She went away and she was like at a friend’s house for a couple of weeks and she bought a vibrator and she tried the things and she came back and she was like,

my gosh, I’ve had so many orgasms. Like this is amazing, you know? And so, yeah, but then like, so then I said to her, I’m like, all right, so let’s figure out how we can incorporate this into sex with your husband. You know what she said, Ginger? She said, I’m having the best sex of my life. He doesn’t get this.

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (43:09)

that’s so good.

My, wow.

Heather Edwards (43:30)

Right.

So she kept that part for herself, but she understood now her body and how to get it to a point that it would keep things from hurting for her from him while still keeping her erotic self for herself and not. Yeah. So like, I loved that for her and I want more for her with the partnership, but like that was where she was. Right. Cause that’s, we meet people where we are or where they are.

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (43:40)

Yeah.

for herself. Yeah. Gosh, that’s… ⁓ Yeah.

Right, right.

That’s a really good story too, because it’s not like everyone’s going to have a liberation story where they find, and there’s no perfect partner, et cetera, whatever. But people have to stay in different situations for different reasons. I love that story for that reason. I mean, she found a place that works for her. No judgment, that’s what works for her. ⁓ That’s a beautiful thing.

Heather Edwards (44:02)

Yeah.

hate.

Yeah, and that’s the piece that gets lost when we go into our normative questioning and we attach sexuality to acts that they do with their partner. Right? So this is why it’s really important for when we talk with, know, when we think about sexuality, it’s our experience, you know, like our pleasure, like our ability to be aroused, our ability to feel desire, our ability to have an orgasm. Like if when we attach those to other people,

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (44:29)

Yeah.

Heather Edwards (44:49)

Like that is not generally the equation that’s going to work. You know, so it’s sorting your own things out.

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (44:57)

that self-exploration is true in so many areas of life and particularly sexually. And I know that you and I probably have a lot of other stories too about patients coming in and not even being comfortable getting to the point where they can even look at what’s down there and then get to the point where they can practice any level of touch, et cetera, for arousal, et cetera. So I think that it’s…

Heather Edwards (45:02)

Thank

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (45:22)

I don’t know, how would you say if someone is uncomfortable with that and they’ve never explored that, that, you know, just self pleasure, ⁓ because that’s about their self care and creating that space where they know how they enjoy things and then they learn what they want and don’t want. If someone’s very uncomfortable with that notion, because so many women were also taught that, you know, their bodies were basically for their partner’s pleasure and not their own, which is a whole other thing we need to dismantle.

Heather Edwards (45:39)

Yeah.

That’s not okay.

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (45:52)

How do you go about talking to them about that? I mean, I’ve had obviously plenty of patients like that. ⁓ But I think it’s important to draw out because not everyone can just feel comfortable saying, I’m just going to go pick up a vibrator and get on with things. Yeah.

Heather Edwards (45:57)

Right.

And it often doesn’t work like that. Right?

Like you kind of have to be at a certain place for the grab a vibrator and try some things out to work. Right? If we have shame and we feel like vibrators are dirty, like even if it works, then it might feel worse, you know? ⁓ so, ⁓ yeah. So when it comes to that, there are like a couple of days, like if someone is like actually feels like repulsion.

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (46:12)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Heather Edwards (46:33)

to that, like I am not going to in any way push anyone to do something that they are not comfortable with or even like suggest it. So usually with those people, what ⁓ it was and not just with those people, but with people who need to kind of get into like like understanding pleasure, we do non sexual pleasure, right? It’s that like the sensual showers, the washing your hands, the like, you know,

smelling like, you know, the smelling the flowers, the walking outside, the feeling the sunshine, the like, the finding those moments that you get lost in that feel really good and amazing, the enjoying touch, you know, ⁓ like, and you can also just figure out like, like self exploration with your skin, and what feels nice and what senses feel good to you, like what like what do like to smell, you know, ⁓ so there’s all sorts of different ways that you can practice self pleasure, that

don’t have anything to do with your genitals, right? Because it’s that act of understanding what is pleasure to you. What are the things that you like? So that’s a place that I like to go. ⁓ Another place that I like to go with it is like, if someone is like, well, I’ve just never done that before and I don’t really see a point to it, but there’s not like a, there’s no like repulsion to it, right? Then it’s starting like explaining to them like the physiological reasons

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (47:36)

Mm-hmm.

Heather Edwards (47:59)

to why understanding your own arousal and how it works is like taking your genitals for a jog, right? Like you increase blood flow and you’re getting all of those things to happen and you’re understanding how like this kind of clitoral stimulation feels really good and makes me have the responses that I need to make sex feel better with a partner, right? So using a very anatomical physiological, this is the medicine.

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (48:06)

You

Yeah. Yeah.

Heather Edwards (48:28)

for what you’re coming to see me for. Because sometimes it is just permission, right? People need like permission and a reason to be able to do that.

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (48:39)

and these stories really teach us about how powerful it is to unlearn those old scripts and move forward. ⁓ Yeah. Here’s a question I have. ⁓ And then I wanna hear about your program and how you got into it. I wanna hear more about that. But one final question I have about people going into the clinic and to the therapy practice, whatever it is to seek help. What’s a boundary statement that a listener

Heather Edwards (48:47)

for sure.

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (49:07)

can use if they feel minimized, dismissed, or misunderstood. Because, I mean, it’s going to happen at some point.

Heather Edwards (49:13)

Right, ⁓ geez. So, I mean, I think a lot of that depends on like the nature. Like, do you want to address it or do you not? Right? Like, is it something where I’m just gonna find another provider because this doesn’t feel safe and like you can always leave, you know? It can be hard, but like, you know, you can. Some of the things around boundaries.

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (49:25)

Mm-hmm.

Like, yeah, yeah.

Heather Edwards (49:40)

might be, you know, just like settings, like, Hey, I need the door to stay open. You know, I need like, it would feel better for me if I was seated here in the room, you know, or like I, this air freshener is a lot for me. You know, these overhead lights are really stressful for me right now. Can we, there any chance we could have the lights off or do you have a different form of lighting or is there a dimmer? Right. Some of those can be boundaries where you’re keeping your nervous system in a much safer place. ⁓

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (50:02)

Mm-hmm.

Heather Edwards (50:08)

that you can absolutely ask for. ⁓ Some of the other, you know, like the thing with some of the other boundaries when it comes to like how someone’s interacting with you is like, they have to have the education and maturity to be able to hold those boundaries or respect them or understand them. And so that’s, you know, that’s the thing. like, am I going to ask for this thing I need or?

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (50:29)

Yeah.

Heather Edwards (50:37)

Do I not think that that is, if I ask for that, do I feel like that’s actually gonna be more emotional labor for me? And I just want to not do that, right?

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (50:44)

Mm-hmm. That’s

a good question to ask yourself. Are you going to be carrying too much emotional labor or mental burden or however? Yeah, that’s a really good ⁓ question.

Heather Edwards (50:59)

Yeah.

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (51:00)

So, all right, I have about three more questions left. ⁓

my gosh. Is it a long story? Do we have time for it?

Heather Edwards (51:11)

I can maybe do a very fast version of it. Okay. So this was a male patient who was maybe like 60 ish who came in to see me and the reason, and this was a, this was a coaching client, just to be specific. This was not a pelvic PT client, but he sought my services because he had just started dating a new partner and she had the most amazing orgasms he had ever seen.

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (51:13)

Okay, all right, I gotta hear it. Let’s hear it.

Heather Edwards (51:40)

And he has said, I don’t know what is happening for her, but I know that I have never felt that way. And I want to figure out how I can do that. He said, I feel like I’m always so concerned about if my penis is hard enough or like what’s going on. Like I’m so concerned about my performance and not coming too early or all of that. He’s like, I have never been able to let go of myself the way that I see her letting go. Right. Which I’m like, my gosh, dream client here. Right.

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (52:05)

Mmm.

Yeah, yeah.

Heather Edwards (52:10)

You know,

so it was so much fun to go through and like bust down some of the myths around him, around things and everything. And then I got to also talk to his partner and they were really curious and like just doing some like anal exploration. And I was so glad I got to talk to them at this point, cause so often when straight couples want to do that, they just decide that they’re going to just go for it. And it’s like, ⁓ let’s take five steps before we even do that. Right.

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (52:36)

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Heather Edwards (52:39)

And so I kind of talk them through just doing a, like both of them, just doing external simulation in ways that feel good and kind of guiding each other, ⁓ just, just around the outside of their anuses so that they can like, just feel that vulnerability and like, make sure that that feels nice and something that they actually wanted to do more of, right. And can they, do they feel like they can relax or did they feel like they can tense just to kind of test the water? So they did this session, right.

And with the stimulation that he was able to just give her like outside and like, just kind of got real hot and heavy. And she had like the best orgasm of her life, right? Is what she had said. And he was so excited and I asked him, said, so like, you know, what did your penis have to do? He said, absolutely nothing. ⁓

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (53:20)

Wow.

Love it.

Heather Edwards (53:34)

So it was

great to just kind of for him to have that experience. And so it’s like, he could like let go of like all of like his expectations around performance and realize that they could just both dance in this delicious pleasure and just figuring out each other’s bodies and what feels good and how they can not have to focus on the stuff that’s hard together. yeah, there we go.

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (53:38)

Let go.

Yeah, that’s awesome. I’m so glad that you stopped me to do that story. I absolutely love that.

That is a great set. That’s like hope. All right, everyone, hope, hope, hope. ⁓ The next, you know, what I was gonna really shore up with ⁓ before I ask about, you know, tell us a little bit about your program and if someone wants to pursue that or someone wants to pursue, you know, coaching with you. But before we get to that, for the…

Heather Edwards (54:04)

Right.

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (54:23)

person listening who has felt shame, brokenness, or silence about sexual dysfunction, what do you want them to know right now?

Heather Edwards (54:34)

I want them to know that what they’re feeling is very valid, right? There are lots of reasons why they’re having those feelings right now and why they’re so hard to deal with and all of that. And that there’s a couple of different pieces in it that can really help them move forward. One is that sometimes what happens is we need to actually grieve the way that we expect

the expectations we had around what sex, what we thought sex was going to be or what sex used to be and is different now, right? So letting go of realizing that this one projection of what we had hoped or what we wanted to continue is maybe not there anymore, or maybe it’s going to be different for us, right? And that it’s okay to grieve and actually like have a ceremony around letting go of some of those expectations while also

doing some of the work on realizing that some of those expectations were maybe like not great for us. Right. And so some of those, like, where did those expectations come from and how can we like, both grieve, letting go of them, but then also be a little bit critical of what those are so that we could step into our next phase of like actually creating a sex life that involves

things that feel good, right? So the things that we enjoy and the things that we want, and it’s probably gonna put you on a path to like starting to explore things that maybe you didn’t know were possible or like ways that you can feel that like you had just crossed off because you had this one kind of narrow version of what you thought sexuality could be and that version got broken. But like the secret in that is that

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (56:08)

Yeah.

Heather Edwards (56:32)

when you have that narrow version of sexuality is it gets broken for everyone. Like at some point it’s going to break. Right? So if we actually want a resilient sex life, okay, which includes connection and pleasure, you know, ongoing with a partner or multiple partners, or if you’re, you know, dating like all of this, if we actually want this resilient version of sexuality, it has to break. Like,

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (56:38)

Yeah, yeah.

Heather Edwards (57:01)

that version of that narrow version of what sex is has to break in order for us to go beyond that and have a much more resilient sex life. So like you got this, you know, and it’s going to look different like at different stages of your life. It’s going to look different.

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (57:04)

big.

Mm-hmm.

That’s pretty important. Yeah.

Yeah, that’s such a good message because you, know, people say trite things like what doesn’t kill you make you stronger, you know, that kind of thing. But I will, you know, often it’s like, you’re strong and you’re like thriving in spite of what has happened to you instead of leading people to believe that, you know, these things that are hard are meant to be there for something that’s like Kate Bowler.

Heather Edwards (57:31)

and

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (57:52)

her work, ⁓ Everything Happens for a Reason and Other, like, it’s a title of her book. Have you seen that book? Kate Bowler, Everything Happens for a Reason and Other Lies I’ve Believed. It’s like that, you know? ⁓ And I think that a question that spins out for me after that is then what is one step that, a next step,

Heather Edwards (57:59)

Mm-mm.

Right. Yeah, exactly.

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (58:23)

the conversation to initiate it that if someone wanted to, listener wanted to say, you know, I’m ready to talk about this. What’s the one conversation that they should initiate this week, whether it’s a partner, a provider, or maybe most importantly themselves?

Heather Edwards (58:38)

Yeah. Like, it depends on what that broken point is. Right. And I would probably say like, I don’t want this to be like a generic answer, but it’s what is my care team that’s going to help me get to that place? And how do I take the first step into finding the right sort of help? Right. Because it’s like,

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (58:45)

Mm-hmm.

me.

Heather Edwards (59:06)

A lot of the stuff there is professional assistance that can be wildly helpful for, you know, to understand what’s going on with your body, what’s going on with your mind, what’s going on with your relationship, what’s going on with the connection, you know, ⁓ if you have the ability to do that, to kind of go in and like start looking for additional care providers to help you get started, like what’s holding you back from that would be my first question, right? From seeking the help you need.

⁓

Yeah, I mean, I think that’s the first question is what’s holding me back and maybe like a, can I see that would be on the other side of me addressing this?

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (59:49)

Yeah, and I think that works

for a question to themselves, you know, what’s holding them back, a question for a partner, and then of course, certainly for the care team. ⁓ But I think that we could all take that exercise and just take a next step, regardless of where you think the status of your sexual health is currently, because I don’t know a human being on the planet that wouldn’t want that to grow. So it’s applicable to everyone. Yeah.

Heather Edwards (59:55)

Mm-hmm.

It really is. Yeah.

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (1:00:19)

So tell me a little bit about your program, ⁓ how people can sign up for that, learn more about that, ⁓ and then obviously where they can find you again. Yeah.

Heather Edwards (1:00:23)

Okay.

Yeah. Great.

Yeah. So as far as my program for professionals, ⁓ it’s through Pelvic Global and it’s called the Pelvic Health Sexuality Counseling Certification. And so it’s for any sexual health professionals that are, or pelvic health professionals that are

working with people where we kind of designed it so that it’s like if you’re working with people and working with their genitals, like more specifically, because that’s a very different version of a medical relationship than just, you know, as you know, prescribing medications or doing talk therapy or things like that, right? So it’s like we’re doing this physical hands on work with folks and we’re helping them with their sexuality. So ⁓ and, you know, I’ve talked a little bit about it, but what we try to do is get providers to really like

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (1:01:03)

Mm-hmm.

Heather Edwards (1:01:20)

explore who they are and why they’re there and what brings them to the place in their own personal lives that that they are in their own personal story of sexuality, right? So that they they’re doing the work that they’re going to ask their patients to do because again, we just we don’t understand how hard this stuff is until we actually do it. And so we

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (1:01:42)

Definitely.

Heather Edwards (1:01:42)

don’t want to be just out there like, yeah, here’s three different pieces of assignment, know, of homework that I want you to do and bring the answers back to me next week when those are like super deep and vulnerable and hard to do. Yeah. So, so we really try to give our, our, our practitioners that come to work with us a big, kind of historical understanding of what sex and sexuality and, and like the social determinants of health are and how

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (1:01:47)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Heather Edwards (1:02:11)

sexual health is absolutely part of our overall health. And then giving them lots of different ways that they can work with people around their physical, their psychosocial and their relational health. Yeah. So I don’t feel like I did a very clear example of that, yeah. It’s a three month program that we see medical pelvic health providers with.

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (1:02:40)

I love that you have created this pathway because there are so many pelvic providers out there that don’t feel like they have that well-rounded ⁓ information and then it gets to be a place where it’s not that they’re not welcoming to the patient, but it feels like they’re out of the boundary of what their comfort level is and then that changes the energy and the dynamic in the room instead of being in a comfortable place. So I I love that pathway.

I’m so glad you’ve created it. ⁓ Tell everyone again where you can find ⁓ the program and then where they can find you.

Heather Edwards (1:03:17)

So you can go to pelvicglobal.com and click on courses and find it that way, or you can go directly to it if you go to pelvicsexcounseling.com. ⁓ So yeah, those are the options for that. do cohorts. Our next cohort will be starting in May. We do a January, May, and September cohort each year. And this is, we’re on cohort 10 already. Seems crazy. Thanks. Yeah. And then.

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (1:03:35)

Okay, awesome.

Congratulations. Yeah, my gosh. Well, thank

you. ⁓ go ahead. Yes.

Heather Edwards (1:03:45)

Yeah. and as far as like working with individuals.

So I do coaching with individuals that is online. And if anyone is curious about reaching out to me, I use a very like educational based thing. And a lot of the things we talked about here are the, this is the kind of ways in which I work with ⁓ clients, you know, giving them ideas and how to move forward and breaking down and problem solving and seeing what we can do moving forward and busting down any of their, their myths that are holding them back.

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (1:04:03)

Mm-hmm.

Heather Edwards (1:04:14)

But they can just email me at info at Heather Edwards creations comm

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (1:04:20)

Okay.

I can’t thank you enough, Heather, for coming on and doing this two-part series, for coming back around again and finishing all these questions. I think that this conversation was just as critical as the first one and so informative and enlightening. And also, you delivered that message in such a way that it makes everything so much more accessible to talk about it. It kind of destigmatizes the…

you know, the nature of ⁓ what has historically, you know, been taboo to talk about. So thank you so much for being here.

Heather Edwards (1:04:58)

You are so welcome. And it was, was a delight. As you can tell, I always love talking about this stuff. So I appreciate you giving me some space and asking wonderful questions for your fantastic podcast. So I hope that it, ⁓ I hope it lands and I hope people enjoy it.

Dr. Ginger Garner PT, DPT (1:05:14)

Thank you.